Episode #81: Growing a Mortgage Team from Scratch with Rob Wishnick

[00:00:00] The realtor is the lifeblood of the mortgage business. No matter how you slice it, that is the career in the mortgage business. The refinances are almost like bonuses. You cannot control the economy and interest rates. Nobody can. But what I can control is who's getting in front of the client, and that's the realtor. And a realtor referral is more powerful oftentimes than their accountant, than their parent, than their financial advisor. Because they're at the open house, the realtor needs a pre-approval on the mortgage.

[00:00:30] They're on the spot, and who are they going to call? They're going to call their mortgage. This is why you and I work together. So you mean on your business cards it didn't say like, we heart referrals? You would just like hand that out to people while you're playing flag football? Might take more than that. Right, right. Maybe I should get to know them.

[00:00:52] Welcome to the podcast dedicated to real estate, insurance, and building your business. Join us as we take you along our own business-building journeys with additional wisdom from our network of local and national experts. Welcome to Bricks and Risk. This episode is brought to you by Property Management Redefined.

[00:01:18] PMR is not just managing properties, they're creating partnerships that build long-term success for property owners. John and his team can be reached at manage at gopmr.com or by phone 267-753-6005. Tim? Yes, Sean? Who's a good client for PMR?

[00:01:41] Property Management Redefined is looking for property owners who value three things. Accountability, reliability, and a results-driven approach. You want to maximize returns but still provide client and tenant satisfaction. There's a lot of property managers out there. Yes, there are. What does PMR do really well? Biggest thing is they're seamless and they're worry-free.

[00:02:04] So with that approach in mind, it allows the property owner to put their trust in PMR and know that the results will be there. The other thing I think a property owner is really going to value because they do it so well is that they have a local expert team, boots on the ground, managing your properties and your tenants' expectations every day so that you feel good about your investments. We have millions of listeners out there. Tens of millions. If they want more information, how do they find PMR?

[00:02:32] Right here, guys. Reach out to John Sachs and his team at Property Management Redefined. We'll take good care of you. Hey, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Bricks and Risk. I'm Tim Garrity. And I'm Sean Manny. Sean, we have another amazing local guest, mortgage expert, Rob Wischnick, Senior Vice President of Mortgage Lending at Guaranteed Rate. How are you doing today, Rob?

[00:03:01] Great. Welcome on in. Thanks for being here. Thanks for having me over here. So some background on Rob. He's a 22-year mortgage expert and a Scotsman Guide Top 500 loan originator in the US. At the core of his business are two key tenets, trust and transparency. He takes a patient approach to making sure his customers are comfortable and confident in their home financing decisions, setting them up for ultimate success.

[00:03:28] He's got a BS in finance from Penn State University. Go Nits. He's got an MBA in accounting from Temple University. Go Owls. Married with two kids. Cherry and White. Loves baseball, baseball cards, and watching the city of Philadelphia evolve into a world-class city. So, why baseball cards? Where does that passion come from? Yeah.

[00:03:59] It was my first job. It was my first... It started as a hobby. What age? Like a lot of kids. I started collecting at six years old, seven years old. I mean, some of my earliest memories and flipping cards and... So, my son is... Oh, Brendan's into it? He's six. We go wildly into it. Like... It's a different world today versus what it was when we were kids.

[00:04:29] I mean, it is... It is... There is that differentness out there, but there's a store... I live in Ambler. There's like this old like... They got card shop? It's not... What's up, John? Shout out. Um... He's a baseball card guy. So, they do like...

[00:04:58] Like some apparel and some printing and some different things. And he has like cards. Oh. And... So, we're like walking distance to this... Oh. Do you go down and check it out? Oh, yeah. Like... He'll cash out his piggy bank, get like $10. How many cards? He's... He's cutting deals with John. Like, oh, if I give you 10, can you give me these too? And, you know, throw a... You know, a wrapper on. Um... So, like at his age, six.

[00:05:28] And now his little brother who's... Yeah, man. No, wait. I'm totally off. Yeah, your son's like, your son's what, eight? Five, eight, and 11. Yeah. Eight. See, I even know the age of his son before he does. Yeah, five and eight. All right, so you got started at six. So, I... I'm the grandson of antique dealers on my father's side. Uh, and so there's always been like a collectible bug in me. And, um, my father would set up a booth at flea markets and sell random crap around the

[00:05:58] You guys actually like were setting up and selling cards and trading cards? And I started selling cards at the flea market. Nice. And then one day there was somebody at a flea market that had binders of 1950s and 60s cards, like mantle, maze, like big cards. And my dad was like, I want them all. Because that was his childhood, right? Yeah. It's all about bringing back your childhood. That's the hobby, right? Yeah. And it's, you know, and when you get older, it's like you want to buy your childhood back, right? Yeah. So you want to get everything that you did when you were a kid.

[00:06:25] So he, um, he bought these two binders and he got into it as much as me. And we started a little business together. And on the weekends, that was our bonding. We would go to shows, we would set up a show, start selling at shows. My first real, like my first job was working at a comic book and baseball card store. And then like most people, you go to college, you forget about it. Yeah. Got rid of it all. And then like 15 years ago, I got the bug a little bit again and just got back into it. But it's, it's completely different.

[00:06:55] It's, there's a lot of aspects of it that are modern day gambling, right? Yeah. Oh yeah. It is. It's like being able to track and you know, being able to track things. It's expensive. It's about the chasing certain cards. Whereas when we were kids, it was just like, Hey, you want your favorite player on a card. They're rookie card or like they're, you know, the one with the hologram. Now there's thousands of one players, rookie cards and it's, and there's, there's like lottery cards that you're trying to hit and the packs are expensive and it's totally different, but it's fun, you know?

[00:07:23] And it's, it's, uh, it's, have you seen the show on Netflix? It's the King of cards. It's a local dude, right? Ken golden. Dude. My kids seen it. Is it good? My kids watch it like over and over and over, but he's like buying like, Hey, they've got a Pele Jersey down in Florida. This guy wants to talk and he comes with like, like a trunk of cash, like, like millions of dollars. Whoa. Oh yeah. And he goes down there.

[00:07:52] And, and so like, that's it. The other one was, uh, have you ever seen the app, the colex app? Yes. So, uh, that's one of mine. Sure. You're all over this just like he is. Yeah. I don't know. Probably even more. Well, the kids bring you into it. Like how we paid for the hat today. Yeah. You traded a good card up. Yeah. You're like, that's how I got it. Uh, jackets and things. Um, dude that, I mean, that's a cool story. I like, I like the bond with your dad.

[00:08:20] You know, your grandparents are connected to that. Obviously Sean, his kids are doing it now too. So jumping into some of like the business stuff. So prior to being an SVP at guaranteed rate, you were with a smaller local mortgage company. So I'm going to harken back to my mortgage days a little bit. Was it a mortgage broker? Was it a correspondent lender or was it like a lender servicer? Like what type of mortgage company was it? Correspondent lenders. Okay. Mortgage bankers. Explain what correspondent lender is to people. Yeah.

[00:08:50] That's not something everyone hears. Correct. Exactly. Now we're getting boring here. Right. So mortgage broker is, everybody calls what we do mortgage broker, right? If we're not a bank or a credit union. Like a general term for your position. Exactly. So a broker really is, it sounds exactly what it is. They're taking your file and they're behind the scenes. They're looking at their various investors that they shop loans to, to come up with the best terms.

[00:09:17] A mortgage banker, we're doing the same thing. We have investors behind the scenes. Our investors are lenders that we're going to ultimately maybe sell that loan to. We may keep the loan on our books. We may sell it. It just depends what bucket it sort of falls into. We may not have to do. But we're underwriting the file. We are sending our money to the closing table. Yep. So it's a little more controlling the process. You're funding it. We're funding the loan at closing.

[00:09:42] And then after closing, we determine if it's going to stay on our books or we're going to send it to somebody else to collect your monthly payments. But ultimately, it just lets us control the process in-house underwriting as opposed to having to rely on that ultimate lender or investor to come up with the money at closing, to underwrite the file, things like that. It's very similar to you because you're an insurance broker. So it's just like the mortgage broker where they're not going to service it.

[00:10:11] So you're not in the servicing business as much as you're into the placing it with different carriers. Trudy would argue that we do do the servicing. Right. But very similar in that there's a generic term like, oh, you're an insurance agent, which covers everybody. Like it's a generic term, right? Mortgage broker. Where we are actually a broker. Where it is different. We're not one carrier, one company.

[00:10:40] What do they call that term again in your world? An exclusive. Yeah. So if you're captive or exclusive agent. That's what it is. Like one, you're tied to one company and whatever they, whatever direction they want to go, you're kind of following. All right. So this place that you started at, what was the name of it? East Coast Mortgage and Financial Services. Yeah, I do remember them. So you start, what brought you to that company to like kind of cut your teeth in the mortgage business? Yeah.

[00:11:07] So it was 2003. I was in a career that I sort of knew was a dead end career. The housing market was booming. Yup. That's right when I got it. And I knew you needed a mortgage to buy a house. That was my, that was my entire knowledge of the mortgage business. And a woman I grew up with, I went to middle school, high school with, her father owned the mortgage company, East Coast Mortgage and Financial.

[00:11:34] And needed, needed some qualified people just to literally process files. Like it was, they were so busy. It was such a busy time. They just needed qualified bodies to help get the loan from start to closing. Stack the papers, make sure we dot I's and cross T's. And so I started processing with the intent that I would be growing a business. And I'm more cautious and I like to make sure I understand things before I dive all in.

[00:12:02] So I learned the business and it really is the best way to learn the business to get other people's loans to the closing. Sure. And you learn what underwriters like to see what they don't, what they, you know, what's important, how, why guidelines exist, right? Like why they're asking for certain things. And it really just helped me learn the business so that I was comfortable enough to then start going out on my own and selling full time. So. How long did you do processing before you started becoming more like an originator, a loan officer? Yeah.

[00:12:30] So it was, it might, my full time job was processing and my own time was originating. So, um, you know, I took the slow and steady path cause again, I want, you know, until I'm really comfortable with something, I don't want to be selling the unknown and the uncertain. So, um, it was about five years where I was, uh, where it, before I became full time sales and I gave up the processing salary. Gotcha.

[00:12:55] So it was, it was always a hybrid role, but my fault from nine to five or whatever the hours needed to be, I was processing. And then in my own time I was originating. So what did you hate about accounting? Yeah. Um, yeah, that's true. That was everything. That was, wait, that was your, that was your MBA was accounting. Wow. You went to college, you got the accounting. You're like, I need more of this. You went back and you're like, Hmm, maybe I'll spend more money and throw it at this. I felt it was my weakest aspects of business. Oh, interesting.

[00:13:24] And so I did it with never with the intention to become an accountant. Uh, my father was an accountant, uh, as his, uh, him and his father had an accounting practice. Oh, wow. My father left because it just wasn't for him. Um, I took one accounting course in college, hated it and, uh, knew it wasn't going to be my future.

[00:13:41] Um, but I felt it was an important piece of business to understand and that, okay, if I can concentrate a little bit more on that, get that understanding, you really get a sense of, you know, how businesses work and the dollars and cents of businesses. So, so that's why, but it was very immediate that I knew I was never going to be. It feels like what bought you some joy in life was trading cards on the weekends, dealing with people making deals.

[00:14:10] And it feels like you were doing accounting. You're like, well, that's not really what I'm into and mortgage. And then farthest thing from you got into mortgage. And that was kind of more like the things you enjoyed. I definitely had an entrepreneurial bug and sales is entrepreneurial. I, I wake up every day and I don't get paid anything unless I go out and find business. Right. So it's, uh, even though I'm a, you know, we have to be W two employees. We can't be independent contractors. That was one of the changes after the mortgage meltdown. Yep.

[00:14:39] We have to be an employee of a lender. Um, so it's, I'm a W two employer, but employee, but I get $0 in base salary. So it's, it's really, uh, so it's that entrepreneurial spirit like every day. And I love it. And that's just, you know, it's what I've always been. I like to, you know, do my own thing. I like to find business my own way and, um, just run a business the way I think it should be run. So it's, it's fun. That that's the exciting part.

[00:15:05] The growth is how much freedom within do you have to like operate at guaranteed rate? Yeah. Because yeah. Um, Rob's got a team too. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, uh, I, I operate under the auspices of this company and the way they want me to originate, but it's other than that, it's, I have total freedom. They're not calling me asking me where I'm at and I have total autonomy. You know, it's, uh, I meant more like, uh, from just the unknown of like, are they requiring you to do events

[00:15:34] or do certain things or wait, or it's just like, Rob, Rob, what do you think works? And you're able to do that. Yeah. We have a lot, um, uh, the, the executive team in our company, they've spent a lot of time and money developing plans on things that you can do to how do you become a better originator? How do you grow your business? And we've tons of resources to help that. I mean, I, you know, when I, when I got to guaranteed rate 10 years ago, um, I was writing

[00:16:01] a fraction of the business and it was, um, just watching all of these salespeople that were doing as much in a month that I was doing in a year. And I was like, huh? Like, are these people smarter than me? Am I really just, or did they, did they just figure out a system? Yeah. And you learn really quickly. It's, it's not about brains. It's about figuring out, I mean, there's certain aspects that you want to have a brain on your head, but, um, but, uh, you know, it's really figuring out a system to be able to scale. Right.

[00:16:31] And to make sure that you're, you're, you're doing the right thing on every deal, but then figuring out how to grow. And you just, you, you realize it's not challenge. It's not rocket science. You just have to be able to, to sort of like, you know, bob and weave in the right direction and put everybody, the pieces in the right, uh, position, uh, to, to, to lie to scale. Yep. All right. So here's like a followup question. So when you start at East coast, you're doing the processing, you're kind of like part

[00:16:59] timing with, with the LO loan officer position. How are you getting business? Were you networking? Were you paying for leads? Like what kind of things were you doing when you first got started to try and drum up business? So for me, again, that was my first real sales job. It was, um, I never, I still never liked to ask for business. It's very hard. So for me, it was easy to just ingrain myself in a lot of activities. I was in my, I was in my late twenties, early thirties.

[00:17:27] Um, I was still playing lots of sports and, uh, we didn't have kids at the time. So like there were, I had plenty of time for weekend activities and everything just became a hobby. You know, hobbies became, oh, well, of course I'm going to use Rob. I like Rob. I want to work with him in business. I'm going to buy a home eventually, you know? And yeah, of course I'm going to use Rob. So it started with my sphere. Um, and then, you know, slowly started expanding my, my, um, my referral network, um, my business

[00:17:55] network, lots of networking groups, lots of networking events. And, um, it really was just, it became omnipresent, right? Like the, the business was just a piece of life and, um, and eventually just started crossing over more. Um, and then, and I tried really, I knew, you know, working with a strong realtor referral base was important. Um, but it wasn't until I really started to ramp up that it was, it was just punching me in the face.

[00:18:23] Like the realtor is the lifeblood of the mortgage business. Yes. No matter how you slice it, it is, that is the career in the mortgage business. The refinances are almost like bonuses. Yep. Uh, you can't, you cannot control the economy and interest rates. There's nobody can. Um, but what I can control is who's getting in front of the client and that's the realtor. Yeah. And, um, and a realtor referral is more powerful oftentimes than their accountant, than their parent, than their financial advisor. Oh yeah. Because they're at the open house.

[00:18:52] The realtor needs a pre-approval on the spot and who are they going to call? They're going to call their mortgage. This is why you and I work together. Yep. So you mean on your business cards, it didn't say like we heart referrals. Right. You would just like hand that out to people while you're playing flag football. It might take more than that. Right. Right. Maybe I should get to know them. Exactly. Um, all right. So, you know, we've known each other for a while, full disclosure. So I personally consider you a mortgage expert and I've always valued your knowledge of the industry.

[00:19:21] To me, I can always ask you a question, especially when things are changing, things are shifting. Like we had lunch not that long ago over in Chestnut Hill and I was like asking you, where do you think things are going with like rates and why? And, and you were really digging deep. Now I did mortgages too. So I have like a baseline of understanding of how mortgage rates work and you know, why they go up and why they go down. But you just being an expert and me being able to ping you anytime I want and just say, hey,

[00:19:50] what do you think of this to me is highly valuable. Um, but one thing I want you to touch upon with all your knowledge is like, what are some of the most common like mortgage myths if you want to call them that are out there that you hear on a regular basis? Um, number one that comes to mind is the 20% down payment. Yeah. So, um, uh, everybody's parents want them to put 20% down because it avoids the, you know, the evil PMI private mortgage insurance. Exactly.

[00:20:20] Um, when our parents and, uh, I'm, I'm 48. So, uh, when, when my parents were buying a home, they didn't have options to put less than 20%. The only option was the government insured FHA loan. Well, mortgage lending had to catch up when the boom, you know, even before in the eighties, nineties, like, like lending had to catch up with the modern borrower. And when the, the, uh, two thousands real estate boom happened, there were more products

[00:20:48] that were coming out every single day that offered low down payments. The mortgage insurance was even more expensive than it is today. So it's just continuing to trend in the direction to, to get to a 20% down payment with the way prices are going. Um, it, and, and just, uh, you know, people getting married later in life or starting families later in life or whatever it is, it's, it's harder to come up with that 20% down payment. Right.

[00:21:13] And, um, and so this PMI has this horrible stigma around it, that like, it's, it's almost like not going to, you're not going to be able to afford it. And, um, even some of the online sites. So, so PMI is based on two factors, mainly your down payment percentage and your credit scores. Right. Right. There's a couple other nuances, but those are the two main ones. And if you have excellent credit, you're that PMI. I mean, you might see online, it's going to cost you several hundred dollars because these online sites have no idea what your credit score is. Right.

[00:21:42] You know, so it's just making a random assumption and we've had $700,000 homes and the PMI is like $60 a month. It's just not, it's not cost prohibitive and it's modern lending, right? It's between down payment, closing costs is a lot of money. So that's myth number one is definitely the 20%. I think you should do a commercial and like create a, like a character, like a PMI and make it like this evil devil. He can do your wardrobe. That's a great idea. Yeah.

[00:22:10] And then by the end of it, we're wearing this thing. You're like, by the end of the 30 second skit, it becomes like, Oh, PMI is our friend. He's not that bad of a guy. Do you know what? All right. So it's funny. So not to cut into the myth part, but like saying that down payment example, I have said this to a lot of buyer clients. Cause again, me having some mortgage background. And when someone's asking me a mortgage question, like as we're getting started, they'll say,

[00:22:38] I would say, how much are you thinking of putting down? It's like a real basic question to ask. I'm thinking of putting on 10% or 20% or 50%. I mean, just depends who you're talking to. And for someone that says, I'm thinking about putting down 20%, that common myth, I would say, why are you thinking of putting down 20%? And more times than not is I don't want mortgage insurance. Plus I want to get my payment down to a lower, lower spot. So, and I've even done just basic calculations showing like the principal and interest on

[00:23:08] 20% versus the principal interest on 10% with the PMI. And I'm like, look, it's a difference. Let's say of like $300 or whatever it is. So I say that's $3,600 a year and you're putting down, you know, what a 50 grand or whatever. I'm like, how long does it take for you to get that back? Would you rather have that 50 grand sitting in your house, which is illiquid?

[00:23:34] You can't pull it out unless you do a line of credit and spend more money and more interest. Or would you rather keep that 50 grand in your bank account, pay the extra 300, 350 a month. And then if you want to do your kitchen next year, you can with cash. You want to do the two bathrooms in your house and hardwood floors. You can with cash. So I would constantly say that to people to just say, look, it may be the most important

[00:24:01] thing to you, principal, to not pay mortgage insurance and to get your mortgage payment as low as it can be because principal financially, budget wise, however you look at it, that's what you want. Like that's going to make you sleep better at night. But for the people who are like, I just thought I had to do that or it made sense to do that because I'm trying to keep my payment below here is to give them the other side. It was a very easy conversation when rates were in the twos and threes. Right.

[00:24:29] Because and the markets were outperforming. You know, you could have invested in anything and gotten 5% basically like there was no risk. So when money was really cheap, it was a very easy conversation as rates get to six and seven, the sixes and sevens. And, you know, your your CDs are paying four and 5%. Now it's not as easy a conversation. Right. And there's more risk in the market now. So not now. There's always risk in the market. But but it's a different conversation.

[00:24:58] But, you know, on every call, the take out the the person that, you know, the human component of selling and this and the scenario, the most important number, there's two important numbers that I want to hear from the client on every single call. And it's what's your monthly payment comfort level? And how much money do you have? I'm not even saying just a down payment. How much money you have, period, that you are willing to part with. Everything. And I'm going to figure out then how to how to best use that money. And we're going to show you how to structure that.

[00:25:27] And once we have those two numbers, it gives me everything I need to know to run with to tell them what house what house price they should be looking at, how we're going to structure that loan and what's going to keep them in their comfort level. So paramount to me, I want to make sure people are sleeping at night. You know, I don't just modern lending has also if you have excellent credit and you are not swimming in consumer debt, modern lending has made it so that we can qualify you for significantly more than you are going to want to spend. And that's just modern lending. And we don't, that's not my goal is to max people out.

[00:25:57] It's keeping them comfortable. So, yep. Some people would be surprised with what they qualify for. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yep. Totally true. You're like, okay, maybe I'll look at that. Just double that number. Like, you know, 500, just go to a million. Yeah. Hey everyone. This is Tim, your favorite bricks and risk co-host. But don't tell Sean. I hope you're enjoying this episode and I'll get right back to it in a moment. Our audience grows through word of mouth.

[00:26:26] So if you would please take a moment of your time and give us a review on the platform you're on, that would be fantastic. Please also help spread the BNR word by sharing your favorite episode with a friend. We greatly appreciate your time and trust. Now, back to the show. I feel like you ask, there's two tenets of my business. Just like, there's two questions you ask when you have, like simplifying things in the

[00:26:54] mortgage world, it makes the conversation so much easier because it's just such like a technical topic. Like you said before, even started like, look, this is dry. Like mortgages are boring. Like even when we started this podcast, we was like, who the hell wants to hear about insurance? This is a real estate and insurance podcast. Come to find that insurance is one of the sexiest topics. I mean, you're signing way more autographs than I am.

[00:27:18] So just on that sheer fact alone, I would say insurance is way more popular than real estate. You know, the last time someone you said, oh, you want me to sign that that magazine for you? And they just started going like this. And you were like, whoa. And I was like, wow, you really are. You are popular. It's like Happy Gilmore. Yeah, just like Happy Gilmore. Exactly. Exactly. But knowing the industry inside and out, how has that always helped you when you take those calls?

[00:27:46] Like knowing, like you said, how do I best use your money? You have to know the programs and where to place it and why. Like, why has that always been like an avenue you've been good at? Yeah, that's so. So again, that's that comes back to my just overall conservativeness. I want to be comfortable with what I'm selling. I want to be knowledgeable with what I'm selling. I don't want to just, you know, I feel like there's two main types of salespeople.

[00:28:13] There's ones that lead with trust and there's ones that just have that natural gift of gab. And for me, it's that trust. Like it's, I don't consider myself a great salesperson. I consider myself a trusted person. You know, and so if you can't trust me, like I, that's devastating to me. Like that's like, you know, it's not personal. It's never personal, but that's hurting my feelings. Like I need to be trusted or like we should not be working together. Yeah.

[00:28:40] Because, you know, it's, you find that really fast, just like in any career. Not everybody is equal at their jobs. They're better people than others. Right. So knowing the guidelines means that we're getting to the closing table. It's not a matter of if we're getting to the closing table. It's that we are getting to the closing table and maybe we need a couple extra documents because something got uncovered in a bank statement or whatever. But the bottom line is when I pre-approve somebody, it's coming with as high a level of certainty

[00:29:07] as we can that this was done right, that we reviewed everything we needed to. And our realtors appreciate that, right? Our reputation then, you know, we win deals based on our reputation. The listing agent's more apt to take my deal versus an online lender that they never took, that they've never heard of or just a random online lender that they have even heard of, like the largest ones that do a ton of marketing because they know the quality of our work. And so there's a lot of guideline knowledge.

[00:29:37] We're always reviewing changes in the industry. They're always coming. There's lenders that come in. There's programs that come in. There are programs that escape, that leave. So it's just knowing the guidelines. You know, there's definitely a pride in that, that like really knowledge is the key to the business. And then it just everything else falls in place. That's awesome. A view from 30,000 feet, Rob.

[00:30:04] There's credit card debt that's like ballooning. That they're just slowly starting to talk about in the media. Yeah. Like what's the impact of that on the housing market and the mortgage? Yeah. That's a great, that's another great myth actually that you bring that up. So a lot of people are- See, that's why I'm trying to weave this in. So that's another myth. People are afraid, well, I have like a lot of credit card debt. I have a lot of student loan debt, right?

[00:30:33] And the truth of the matter is we don't care about the aggregate number. We don't care if you have $30,000 in credit cards. We care about what your monthly payment is because one of the metrics is what's called debt to income ratio. What are your monthly expenses that we're going to see on credit, the new housing payment divided by your monthly income we're qualifying you with? So you could have $30,000 or let's just even say $10,000 in credit card debt and your minimum payment is $1,000, right?

[00:31:01] We're counting $1,000 against you, not $10,000 against you. So that is a- and some people are apprehensive to fill out an application until they've paid certain things off. And it's like if we can get to them early enough to just say like, hey, like maybe we don't want to use that money for that credit card. That $10,000, look, I want you to get rid of that credit card debt for sure because it's at a rate I'm sure. Right, right. But if you need every penny that you do to get into this house, $10,000 there might not be the best use of funds.

[00:31:30] And it's no different than a lawyer or a doctor that have these humongous student loans and maybe they're overpaying on them just to kind of like take them down. But maybe you're like, well, take a step back. You know, we don't necessarily need you to pay that amount. You can pay this and we can still qualify you. You make good money as a doctor, let's say, or an MBA, but your student loan payment is only $500 a month, even though you owe $100,000, let's say. I'm trying to fit into their life.

[00:31:59] I don't want to interrupt their dreams. But if they're coming at me saying I want to buy a house, I'm going to come at it from the aspect of here's what you need to do to get this house. Here's what you need to do to get this monthly payment here. Hey, maybe if you did pay off this car loan that you've got 12 payments left, your monthly expenses are going to come down, right? Because we're earmarking more money towards getting rid of that car and now your housing payment could go up a little bit maybe, right? So it's just playing with some numbers, you know?

[00:32:28] You're a professional masseuse. You're sizing the numbers and putting it where it's got to go. All right, so you're a family man living in a big city, Philadelphia, sixth largest city in the U.S. You grew up in the Burbs, though, just like we did. What is it about raising your kids and living in the city that you love today? Yeah, it's everything. I never thought I would live in the city. I grew up in the suburbs.

[00:32:57] I went to Penn State, so the middle of Pennsylvania. Right. Never thought I'd live in a city. I moved in for social life in my mid-20s, and I just never wanted to leave. It's everything I need is there. You can walk everywhere. You don't have to hop in a car to get everywhere. I can walk to my office if I want. The parks, the playgrounds, our schools a block away. I just think it's a fun place to live.

[00:33:27] There's lots of activity, lots of action. The nightlife is fantastic, and it's just everything about it, really. It's just I like the hustle and bustle. I don't need solitude and quiet and tons of space or anything like that. Like Mooney and I. Sometimes it's nice. Sometimes it's nice and it's a breath of fresh air. On vacation. Get away. That's right. That's right. So you figure out where you do find your peaceful times. But it's great. It's not for everybody.

[00:33:55] Most of our friends have chosen the route of moving from city to suburbs. We're one of the few that didn't. But it's just everything about it. I love city life. I think Philadelphia is a world-class city. It gets a lot of negative press, for sure, and some deservedly so. There are things that absolutely could be better, but I think it is a world-class city. Well, that's every city, too. Right?

[00:34:22] You go to New York and you could point out all the stuff that's wrong or doesn't work, but in the end. There used to be a billboard back in the day that said, Philadelphia is not as bad as Philadelphians say it is. Because sometimes it's us bad-mouthing our own city, which I tend not to do, but my co-host here tends to love to do. That's just me in general. Yeah.

[00:34:50] It's not like a Philadelphia thing. It's like I'm just negative about everything. That's very true. The Eagles keep winning the Super Bowl. Yeah. Hey. Everything. That's all. I do love the one where it was like the meme about like, what do we have to complain about now? Right. Nothing to complain about anymore. You got to find something. Two Super Bowls in whatever it was. Seven years. That's cool. All right.

[00:35:16] So what you love most about what you do is assisting people with their largest life purchase. But you took it a step further. You said, here's a more in-depth answer to your question. The pursuit of business growth. So what is it about growing your team? Why is that such a fun part of your job? Yeah. Because the loan process is monotonous, right? It's speaking to customers about the same thing over and over and over again.

[00:35:45] And there is some definite, you know, we close on somebody that they're the first person in their family to ever buy a house. Like, that's amazing. That is so cool. And, you know, look, the mortgage process, unfortunately, has sort of become as close to a commodity. Yeah. In some, you know, so the first question a lot of people ask is, what's your rate? Right? What's your rate? And they don't recognize, well, that's not, you're just starting to look. You might not be buying for six months. The rate's irrelevant. It is irrelevant.

[00:36:14] And it's not the right first question to ask. So it's like, okay, well, the loans, you know, we're going to do great work on the loans. That's given. Like, that's automatic. It's not a question. So what else can I enjoy in this? And it's the fun of, like, figuring out how to take it to another level. Um, so I, when I got to guaranteed rate, I was about a $12 million producer during the height of COVID when there's lots of refinances. And I mean, we took it to almost 200 million. Wow.

[00:36:42] And the past few years has been over a hundred million. So it's, you know, there's no refinances. So it's, the growth has been fun and trying to figure out how to just evolve because I'm getting older. The realtors that are, that are at open houses, they're 25 to 35 years old. Trying to relate with them is getting a little harder. Isn't that funny? But, um, but you know, it's, uh, the, the word of mouth, we do good work. They're the realtors refer their friends. They tell us they should be working with us.

[00:37:10] So it's just keeping that going and evolving and growing. That's, that's challenging. And I like being challenged. So it reminds me of insurance. It does. You say, uh, it's monotonous. We can check that box. Um, but everything is, um, how much can you? How much can you save me? And I'm like, well, um, that's important, but that's one piece of the puzzle that you have to look at.

[00:37:37] Uh, we actually had this conversation in our office the other day and we have an online intake sheet where you fill out some information. And I came up with the idea that it's going to have like, like what's most important for you? Uh, like service. Yeah. Tell me what, what you value. Yeah. That's a good one. Well, here's why is because I can get you into an insurance policy that's going to save you money and be cheap.

[00:38:06] But if you're not worried about, if you're not worried about getting a claim paid, right? If you're not worried about that and you just want to pay a low premium, I got that for you. I'll put it over here. Don't put a claim in because you're going to get screwed. Right. If you, if you want like an app and you want everything digital and that's like your biggest concern, I have that for you over here.

[00:38:32] If you want like the best coverage with the best carrier, I have that for you over here. So it's kind of trying to figure out, it's more of a psychological thing or, or kind of steering, uh, finding out what's most important to them and then kind of like maneuvering through that to find them, you know, the real estate insurance mortgage. I think they're all very similar sales. Yeah. Right. There's, there's some aspect of your service that you have to break through the customer. Yeah.

[00:39:01] Um, other than just being the low cost provider all the time. Right. Because if it's only about that, it's, you know, we say you win by price, you lose by price. You know, biggest struggle you put delegation. So is delegation, has that been a struggle for you because you like kind of having your hands like in the dough, let's call it like, you don't want the best example, like pizza shop. I always say pizza shop.

[00:39:29] Like you can have three people making the pizzas and you're just, you're quality control. You're going around. Okay. Yup. Looks good. Like cheese is perfect. Sauce. Nice work. Or you can be the guy or girl that, no, I need, I need to roll this out. Are you the type to roll it out? Is that why it's been a little bit of a struggle? Yes. Yeah. I, uh, very hands on. It comes from the processing days. Just want to make sure, you know, sometimes, you know, when it's, when it's like just easier to do it yourself than to tell somebody else how to do something or, or to do it, it's

[00:39:57] then my natural response is just doing myself. Yeah. But then you can't grow. Right. So you can only get to so much. So we just had, um, a corporate trip, uh, to Miami and they broke us up into groups and they said, what does your perfect day look like? And my answer, like I had like my little next epiphany is like, well, my perfect day is actually when I'm here because I'm delegating 90% of what I should be delegating when I'm home. Yeah. And I'm doing the 10% that needs my true attention.

[00:40:27] Like I put a great team together. Like I trust my team. I, you know, Mark on my team who Mark Hirsch, shout out what's up, man. I mean, we play little league together. This guy sees every email that comes in the inbox. He, he, he sees the business. Like we, we just know how each other think. And, um, I put the right team in place to delegate. And then I get home from the trip and I delegate 10%. I go right back to, so I'm like, you know what? I'm not going to do it this time. I'm going to start pushing that back. I'm going to get, get back to that 90% when I'm home.

[00:40:55] And it's almost like, treat it like I'm away to my team. Treat like it, like I'm away. Good advice. And I'm still here. I still see every email that comes in and I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, if there's one thing I'm a master at, it is email. Uh, I can, I get my inbox down to zero every day. Me too. All email across all email platforms. And, um, that's my control, right? Because I knew I saw it and I saw the team respond to do it, things like that. So I can still see what's going on and know exactly where files at and things like that. But I can be delegating more.

[00:41:25] So it's, um, it's, it's, it's a process. I'm, I'm training my brain to do it. Um, and I'm, I'm going to stick to it. So it's been, that's been fun since I've been back. So, yeah. Awesome, man. Yeah. Uh, so tip for our audience, be ready to work and establish a great reputation. There are so many different ways to create a career, become an expert, grind and evolve. So the, the one thing I see in there that we had talked about in depth already is like

[00:41:54] become an expert, um, evolving. You're talking about, okay, like, you know, I was doing this now I'm trying to do that. But the grinding aspect, why, why is grinding always worked for you? Like, why have you been a grinder? Yeah. Um, so I, I, for me, I am not the person that can have 10 jobs. You know, there are some people that are just masters of making money and they can have 10

[00:42:20] businesses and, and be delegate, delegate enough. I own a little bit of this. This takes a little bit of my time. Like they all make me money. Yeah. Uh, and that's just, I, I just wouldn't be able to do it. Like, you know, even the baseball cards, like I came and called a side hustle. It's therapy. It's just, it's, it's not a side hustle. It doesn't make money. It's just, it's literally just fun for me to get my brain off of work, you know?

[00:42:46] Um, so it's, uh, the, the grinding for me, I just know for me to make a living, I am going to have to work harder than everybody else. Right. And, and there's no medals for working yourself to an early grave. That, that is not what I promote here, but you have to be able to be passionate about it. For me, like I had to give up when, when the business started growing, um, there was just less time in the day. Right. Right.

[00:43:16] Family got to spend, I have to spend time with family. I have to get things out. Like I have, we have deadlines every single day. I'd have to get done. There's people waiting on us to make offers, things like that. We don't want them waiting. Um, and so like, what did I have to give up? I had to give up watching TV. Right. And I love TV, but I had to get something had to give. I just didn't have the time. So it's like now it's just in my brain. Like, okay, am I going to get this out off my desk at 10 o'clock at night after the kids are down? Um, or am I going to just watch TV?

[00:43:46] And the answer is like, I find more enjoyment. Just keep going. Just keep getting the work done. Keep it going. Um, and you know, it's, you just have to be, I never like when people say you have to have a job doing what you love. You just have to be passionate about it. Right. If you, if you truly hate what you're doing, you're, it's going to show in your work. You're going to be miserable every day, but yeah, you just have to be, it's not like you have like, I don't, nobody loves mortgages. Nobody comes in this world thinking they're going to be a mortgage broker. Or a banker.

[00:44:15] Like, you, you know, you, you fall into it. You fall into a career. There's, there's aspects of, there's aspects of entrepreneurialism. There's aspects of finance, like stuff that I've been trained. So it just, it wound up being a natural fit. I realized I was good at it. I realized I could comprehend the guidelines and it was like, okay, like I get this. Like it's, I'm passionate about it. Extremely passionate. I'm the president in my life, but like, I'm passionate about it enough that I care enough that this is something I'm fine sinking my time into.

[00:44:43] And, and I think it's, it's hard for people that like is starting out in a career, trying to find what they love. When you try and look too hard for what you think you love, you're missing out on a whole lot of other things that maybe you're good at. Yeah. And maybe there is a career in, right? So it's just, you have to be passionate enough about it, but you've got to work hard. I mean, it's, you know, you have to separate yourself from the bunch. And one thing I can do is work. I can work through it. To be successful. There has to be a period where you are grinding.

[00:45:11] Like, and you're, yeah, you've been a little bit more like that. I'm less of that. So you've even said on past episodes when you were first getting started insurance, you're like, I'm like the first one there and the last one out. Yeah. Like that was how you rolled. Yeah. Like it's, I don't know. It's, it's just, and I've always been that way. Like, you know, it just, it's interesting. Like I work very hard, but I don't look at it that way, which, which is also like a different perspective.

[00:45:40] I think I've always been a little bit more of like a strategic thinker. Like how do I, how do I work hard for, for certain things that I know will pay dividends later? It's probably why I was very into content creation early on knowing that it would just turn into evergreen content and eventually like it would just get views or likes or shares or, you know, a phone call or an email. And, and that's the opposite side.

[00:46:07] But what I love about what you shared, Rob, was you're just giving people perspective. And like, that is great advice. It's like, look, I can control the grinding. Like again, even from a strategic part, I can't really control when something is going to happen. It's got to sit around and wait and kind of hope for it. Whereas if you're grinding, like you guys had more, you know, subscribe to like early

[00:46:31] on, it's like, no, it's just, if I'm working harder than most of my peers, the odds of me doing better in business financially, you know, volume, premium, whatever business you're in, like chances are you're going to be that much greater than them purely from the standpoint of like, look, I really like what I'm doing. I'm just going to bust my ass to do this all day, every day. And then eventually I will get to a point where maybe I can delegate a little bit more.

[00:46:58] I think it goes back to what Rob said or touched on earlier was like, I'm not the smartest guy. I'm not the most connected guy. I'm not the best salesperson. Yeah. Right. So like, if you take all of those off the table, like, what are you left with? Well, I know if I work harder than those people, you know, there's a chance that I can be successful. So maybe, maybe that's the way that I kind of got to the point where I am is that didn't have this. I didn't have this.

[00:47:26] I didn't have this, but Hey, I'm able to do this and control that. So maybe that's the path for me. Your quote was great. So you will never get what you don't ask for. Was that said by someone? Is this just something that you've always kind of like said to yourself? There's probably been evolutions of this, you know, and it wound up just being that, um, I'm sure I'm not the first person to think of that. Um, uh, but you know, my, my, one of my first jobs was as a bus boy at a local deli.

[00:47:56] And, um, I remember I never got a raise. And then I found out that someone that they just hired as a bus boy, a brand new bus boy was making more than me on day one. Wow. And I was like, well, that's not right. And I didn't know how to ask for it. Right. I didn't, and this is, this takes, for me, this took a lot of gaining confidence, gaining the skills of how to talk to people. Cause you know, like you can come off as argumentative when you're not happy.

[00:48:23] And, um, and I had to make the uncomfortable, like, you know, Hey, can I get a raise? You know, like as a 16 year old kid. What do you say? Yay. And, and as I've gone through various, um, professions throughout my life, I've just recognized like whether it's a sale, whether it's a salary, whether it's a split in commission, if you never asked for it, you were never going to be given it.

[00:48:48] And you have to, you have to be your own advocate always, always, always. And if you think you deserve it, even if you don't think you deserve it, but you know, you make the right case, right. And make the right case for what you think you deserve and why you deserve it. And you know, it's because if you never ask, nobody's going to hand it to you. I think it was Michael Scott said, uh, you miss all the shots you don't take. Was that him or is that Jordan? No, it's Wayne Gretzky. Oh, that's right. Wayne Gretzky. Different version.

[00:49:17] No, it's a similar concept, right? It's, you know, you, you just have to be, you have to gain that confidence and that courage and be bold to, to ask a realtor, Hey, let's go to lunch. Yeah. Like, let's go on for me in the very beginning. I couldn't do it. Right. I had to learn. I had to be confident in what I was selling enough to then go do it. Right. So it's just, again, there are so many levels on, but a salary or just when you think you want more in your career or whatever, like you have to be bold.

[00:49:43] I keep in mind too, that it's, it's rare for someone to, Hey, you deserve more. I'm going to give you more. Yeah. Right. It doesn't work like that. No business works like that. No. Very rare. Right. Awesome conversation. So many nuggets in this one. So before we shut it down, why don't you tell our listeners and watchers more about where they can learn about you and everything you got going on? Yeah.

[00:50:05] So website is rate.com backslash Rob W. That'll take you in and it'll show you all my ways to my cell phone number, office number, which is basically one. Um, and, uh, at Philly mortgage is the Instagram and that's a good Instagram. It was a good one. All right. It's I got that across all platforms and then most of the other ones I don't, don't even log into, but I got to pay someone for that.

[00:50:34] You didn't have to like leapfrog or that was like open and you got an early adopter just to get the handle. Yeah. Yeah. Very smart. It was like us with the website. I got the, uh, bricks and risk.com website. Like as entrepreneurs, how you go on those websites and just see if something's available. Oh yeah. That's like a hobby. Oh yeah. Totally. Yeah. Awesome. Well, that's all we have for this one, folks. Thank you for tuning in again to another episode of bricks and risk. See you soon.

[00:51:03] Thank you for joining us on another episode of bricks and risk. Our goal is that you walk away with one or two valuable nuggets, and we greatly appreciate you sharing your time with us today. You can find all BNR episodes on Spotify, Apple music, YouTube, and anywhere else you get your podcast content until next time. Keep learning and keep growing.