What Building His Own Appraisal Firm Has Taught Mike Coyle | Episode 96

There there are appraisers out there, just like with any other industry, you know, saying, you know, it's gonna put us out of work. It's gonna put the appraisers who don't know how to use it out of work. And if you can use it and you know how to, you know, develop you know good prompts and things like that, you're you're gonna be fine. And actually it's gonna it's gonna help you build your company. Agreed. Yeah.

It's a tool. And it's Mr. AI right here, by the way. Out of the two of us, let's call it. Probably out of a lot of people.

From your insurance perspective, how are you using it?

All day, every time all the time. I put that on everything.

You're gonna use it in in your marketing?

Yeah. They have lunch together. No, but you can you can build, you know, you can you can I'm not saying it can replace everything. Definitely not, but there's uh an aspect to it that can enhance everything. It can enhance everything that we do. Totally. And so why would I not be doing it?

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Right here, guys. Reach out to John Sachs and his team at Property Management Redefine. We'll take good care of you. Hey everyone. Welcome to another episode of Bricks and Risk. I'm Tim Gardy. And I'm Sean Mooney. Today, Sean, we have another local guest. We have a business owner, entrepreneur. In the appraisal space, we have Mike Coyle, founder of the Coyle Group. How are you doing today, Mike?

I'm doing well. I'm doing well. Thanks.

Yeah, thanks for being here. So a little background on Mike. So since 2000, Mike has provided real estate appraisal services throughout PA, and in 2007, he founded the Coyle Group. Appraisals are not just for lenders and banks. Mike works with attorneys, agents, financial planners, investors, and private owners. His goal is to help his clients find solutions to their valuation problems. By providing data-driven analysis, deep market knowledge, and clear communication, the COIL group is able to deliver valuation results that are both well supported and easy for clients to understand. Mike went to LaSalle College High School. Hey now. And Villanova University. CoCAT. And he's married and father of five. Yeah. Get all that right? Yeah.

So far. Awesome.

All right. So I think what's cool about this episode is you and I were having a conversation recently. Yeah. So I was at an open house in Roxboro and I was helping a buyer client in brewery town. And if you recall, I had said, hey, there's two bedrooms on the second floor, and then there's this really nice finished basement with like egress, and it's got one bedroom down there and it's got a bathroom. Would you consider that a two-bedroom home or a three-bedroom home? And I thought that was interesting because you and I just like started chatting and and I rely on you for expertise. So first question I want to ask is kind of like, how did you like get started in the appraisal space? Wait, what was the answer? Oh, oh, the answer the answer was it was a two-bed home with a finished basement, a bedroom, and a bath.

All right.

From from an appraisal standpoint. So I wanted to get on the uh docket. Didn't mean mess you up there. Um so how did you get into the appraisal space?

Well, well, it's funny. No one no one goes into appraisal as a direct route. It's always some circuitous kind of thing. And uh I had graduated college. Um, it was a tough job market. So I literally spent three years roofing after college up in Chestnut Hill and did that. And then what roofing company was that? Uh CE Hopkin over the Uber Slate? Slate, copper, cedar, all that stuff.

Wow, you know.

Yeah, never did the hot mopping or anything like that. It was just all kind of like, I mean, you're working at Chestnut Hill.

Yeah.

So uh did that for three years, and then uh had a buddy of mine who I actually I still work with today. So he was just getting into appraisal, had me said, hey, you know, said, Hey, look, my my company's we're expanding, we're bringing people in, come in. And at the time I had long roofer hair.

Yeah, yeah. And he's ponytail or straight down?

Uh it was it was straight down and I wore it back with a bandana.

Did you go to the Crescent Inn at like seven in the morning uh before you went to work?

No, we would go to the Greeks at the top of the hill and two is this afternoon. Nice. But no, um, no, that's it's that's like roofers get a really bad rap for that, but it's it's kind of warranted. Right, right, right.

Listen if I was have a couple get back up on there.

Pretty much, yeah. Pretty much. Uh so you so yeah, he he basically said, Look, if you want to come and you know, we'll interview you, but you got to cut your hair. So I went, cut my hair that night, went and got the interview, and it just you know took off from there. But uh, so that was probably '93.

Wow. And this was so this was after college. Yeah, it was after college. All right, so you graduate from Villanova. Villanova is a fantastic school. What kind of drove you to just say, you know what, I don't know if I really want like a corporate white-collar job or whatever it was you were going to. I think you were you marketing? Yeah. Okay. So you were marketing. So again, you're kind of setting yourself up for like a corporate job. Yeah. Um, what made you say, like, I'm gonna go do this for a couple years? Like, why did you want to do that?

Um immaturity? Yeah. Okay. I'll be honest. I mean, great answer. You know, poor decisions.

Yep. Guilty? Yeah.

Yeah. So you know, sometimes you've got to find out what you don't want to do to kind of springboard from that in the future and kind of say, okay, we check that off the list. I don't want to ever, you know, be out on a roof in January, you know, and and so so I spent three years doing that and uh kind of enjoyed it. It was nice to be able to be out there.

But uh cash, I'm assuming you were getting paid in cash kind of thing, or was it legit? Was it like it was legit?

No, we had taxes taken out, but they paid rather than giving you a check, they paid every every weekend or every week, you get paid in cash in a little manila envelope. And so you get your cash with your withholding written on the front of it, so you knew what they were taking out.

No way.

And then that there were literally guys that they would come in, they get paid on cash on Friday, and then on Monday they're taking loans from their from the boss on Monday because they you know wasted all their money over the weekend.

There, there's some interesting guys, you know, some lots of characters on the uh roofing circuit. Oh, yeah. As soon as they get paid, they're like, it's party time.

It was, yeah, I think I was the only guy on the crew without a tattoo.

Yeah.

And uh my father used to joke, you're the best educated roofer in Philadelphia. Yeah. Wasn't happy about that.

But you get your haircut. Yeah, get your hair. You start to you start to mature a little bit. You're like, okay, you know, do I want to keep doing roofing or do I want to maybe apply some of the knowledge I I have? So what was the next step after that? Who'd you go to work for?

Um went for a company um in Bluebell's no longer uh in uh in business called Tech Review. And as as appraisal firms go, it was a puppy mill. And they just did, you know, large volumes of work. They'd send guys from Philadelphia out to Schuylkill Town, you know, county and stuff like that. Yeah. So driving all over all over the place. I mean, I literally worked for 18 months every day of the week, you know, crazy hours. But it was it was good money, I was getting experience. But it was also, you know, the market was hot right then, and then it cooled off in kind of 93, and they literally laid off um a large portion of the appraisers in one day and just said, you know, sorry, we don't have anything for you.

Wow.

So that's when I, as we mentioned earlier, my my family had an insurance brokerage. I went and worked there for a number of years until we sold that in '99. Then I went back into appraisal through some, you know, people I'd met, you know, during the insurance stint.

So when when you started that job, was it um was that when you were working on your appraiser's license? Did you have to have an appraiser's license before you did that job? Like how did that part work?

Well, it's funny because like back when I was originally started appraisal, the appraiser's licensure was just starting to come into being.

Oh, wow.

And it was, yeah, it was it was really on and you know, really early on in that in that uh you know, time period. So um I started accumulating hours through like you know 93 or whatever, 94. Uh, left the business for a while, and then when I got back in, I had to go find literally find the work I'd you know done. And I'm literally going through the the basement at Tech Review. They were still in business at the time, and they had literally cardboard banana boxes filled with printed appraisals that I would have to go through and say, uh, there's my name, I pull it aside. Oh my god. And then through that school. Oh yeah, literally everything was printed up. It wasn't a matter of like just, oh yeah, well, just print the one she you know, you did. You had to go physically find it. And then you had to physically, you know, make a list of of all the reports you'd done. Okay. And then what happens is the state says, Okay, well, you know, of these reports that we know you did, send us 20. And, you know, maybe of those 20 you didn't have the full report because you were digging through banana boxes that were wet and moldy and stuff like that.

Oh my gosh.

So then the state responds, so it literally took me from my first submission to getting permission to go sit for the exam, took me a year.

Wow, just piecing together like your history of like doing appraise.

And and the state board at the time was meeting once a month. So they take care of business and then they come to your item again. And as soon as your item came in, it would go to the bottom of the pile. So they'd go through everything and then they come to your item. So they would basically say of those 20, you could only allocate 18. You know what, we're gonna need you to you know provide these provide these other 10 because we're not sure if you're you're you know being factual about it. So finally got through it, was able to sit for the exam, and finally got licensed in 2000.

But you need like a buddy up at the state house or something like just push me up and be like, hey Sal, hey, well, it was funny like you see.

Yeah, well, over that time I'd gotten to meet there was a woman up there that was kind of like the keep keeper of the gate.

Yeah.

And I was able to call her and she was able to- This is out like in Harrisburg, right? Out in Harrisburg, and she was able to tell you again, Mike. Yeah, to walk me through it. And like literally, she'd be like, Look, they're meeting tomorrow. I'll get you on the docket, but you've got to run your paperwork up here. So I'd literally hop in the car and run out to Harrisburg, drop it off to her, and you know, she you know, get it on the you know, on the docket for that the following day.

Always helps to have an in. Always, always. Well, here's one thing I'll say about all that, and thank you for sharing all that because that's we want people to hear those things, to understand what other people have gone through to get to where they're at. And like today, you know, wanting to go out on your own is much, much easier. Like you have social media, all the applications are online, like you can get answers much faster, like things are done easier. Like back in the day when you were doing that, like even me 15 years ago when I got my real estate license, I remember I passed my test. I was like, cool, like how soon can I do this? They're like, No, you have to wait for the state to mail you your license before you can practice. And I'm like, is there another way? They're like, Yeah, you could drive your application to Harrisburg. I was like, I'm going to Harrisburg tomorrow. Drove out there, went up this little window in this building that looks like freaking Peter and Paul Basilica in Philadelphia. And I said, Hey, I just passed my test yesterday. And they, okay, do you have uh do you have a cashier check? And I'm like, I do not. No. They're like right around the corner. I was like, cool, went and got that, came back, boom, walked out with a license. And and that's and I don't say that to be like, hey, it's way easier today to be a business owner. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that, you know, business wasn't as always as easy as it is today, and people learned different paths to where they were going through some of that nonsense.

But it's no different though. Like, yes, we had to drive to you know, Harrisburg or we had to do this. Now it's it's kind of those same things that you're tr always trying to maneuver through, it's just on a technological platform, right? And so it kind of does like your Wi-Fi doesn't work. Yeah. Um those like landmines are still there. Of course. And I think that's the being a business owner, you're you're you're constantly maneuvering through shortcuts and you know how to get through the minefield. Yeah. And I think that's your point, is like when we talk about these things, we just want to kind of like air them out so people have an understanding of yeah.

It's not like our grandparents being like, I used to walk to school without socks, right? And had blisters.

Right. I I I remember distinctly in the in the late 80s when my father got his first fax machine with thermal paper, he thought it was the best thing ever. And then he realized that like three years later he'd go to the files and all the print from the thermal paper. All the paper is gone. And he's and he's gonna be like, Oh my gosh. Yeah, that's a good thing.

Little things like that that were, you know. Absolutely. Yeah. All right. So so you started your own appraisal company from scratch.

Actually, no, I had a partner for a few years. Did you? I don't think I knew that.

Okay, tell me about that.

Um, I had a had a partner. Um one of the one of my father's clients uh from the insurance brokerage was an appraiser. He was an older guy, and he was actually moving his office to Chestnut Hill. And he had partnered along one along the way with one of the fellas that I had worked with at Tech Review.

Oh, okay.

So they were like, hey, look, you just you know, you sold your folks' business, you're you're you know, you need a little time to breathe. Why don't you come work with us? And I was living in Chestnut Hill at the time, so it made complete sense. Um, so that was probably 2000. Uh then in 2007, my partner and I we decided to split. He was an older fella, he was kind of going.

This is how we met. Yeah, so when I was when I was in the mortgage business. Yeah, you would come by the office. True story. When I was a street lawn officer, I used to stop in there like every week, every other week, and drop off rate sheets and try and try and chat it up. There you go. Interesting. So you started, all right. So you started there, and when you're at that company when it wasn't gonna make sense for you anymore, that's when you decide to go off and start your exactly.

It's a new company, let's call it. In December of uh 07, I started the Quail Group and have been going ever since.

The only thing that comes to mind is like you start in 2007 and 2008. Exactly. Hell breaks loose.

Awful. It's like the worst time to get in business.

So chapter two of being a business owner is like timing. The landmines over here that you need to navigate through, and then like a market collapsed.

Yeah, you missed that steaming pile and you jumped into another one. But it was even better right at the same time. My wife and I bought into a patio furniture company.

No way. Oh, yeah. I didn't know this.

Oh, yes, and local, national, like the whole company in Chestnut Hill.

Oh, yeah, sure.

We were partners in that, and everything went hell sideways, you know, right as we opened up a lot of people.

No one's buying patio furniture in 2008.

And so it's yeah, so we eventually we were able to extract ourselves from that.

And what was the conversation? Hey, Mike, we need another partner for this patio furniture company.

Well, it it was it was funny because my my wife's always been really entrepreneurial. She, you know, had worked in sales and she was uh with Philadelphia magazine for years, and one of her clients was the Hill Company because she was selling ads. Yeah, so she got into them and you know finally said, Hey, you know, the the owner at the time said, Hey, look, you know, you'd be a really good fit for us. Do you guys have any interest? They approached us, we said, Yeah, again, it was right around the corner.

Yep.

So it made sense.

And yeah, you're like, hey, we're in Chestnut Hill. Like this is a nice store. This is nice. Who doesn't need patio furniture?

Yeah, we were we were clients. I mean, you know, it just kind of made sense. And then the the economy had a different uh a different take on things.

How bad for you from an appra I I think it's like catastrophic for an appraiser during this time. Was it as as bad as I would assume it to be?

It it it was tough. It it was really tough because you know, obviously no one was lending and and things were just kind of crazy. But one of the things like you spoke to earlier is when when I uh dissolved the partnership with my my partner, one of the things that I wanted to concentrate on was private work, you know, estates, divorces, tax assessment appeals. Well, I mean, people are always getting divorced, they're always dying, and you know, they always want to fight their taxes. Yeah, and that's one of the things that you know we really developed a proficiency in, you know, going forward.

And that's so that's kind of what saved us through the slow times was the fact that we could go out and get these a lot of that stuff was going on, especially like you know, divorce or people you know filing for bankruptcy or short sales or what was it?

So you'd have business, other ones that rely so much so heavily on mortgage-driven, uh purchase-driven uh appraisals. And you were saying, well, if we diversify a little bit or do more of this and have a specialty in this, all those other ones, uh that helped to kind of totally help.

Yeah, I mean, we we had it, we had a core group of lenders, and you guys have heard of appraisal management companies. I know you have. Um, I've always tried to stay away from them and you know, had to work with some over the years, but you know, presently we don't work with any of them.

Yeah. You rely more on like your own network word of mouth. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, we work with as far as our lending portion, we work with some regional lenders. Um, we work with the VA a lot. Nice. Um, which is which is great. That's that keeps a good steady stream of lending work, and then we've really gone to develop that private side. And that has you know helped us along the way. And it's great because it's it's interesting work, it's different all the time.

Um very personal. Like, you know, someone's going through like a divorce or a foreclosure or a death.

Yeah, but you don't deal with it, you don't deal with that, right? You're on the outskirts of you know, dealing with an attorney or attorneys.

Well, with the divorce uh side, a lot of times what'll happen is people are you know where where they have an attorney helping them, the attorney says, Okay, you need an appraisal. Yeah. So they're like well, Mike. They have to go out and find an appraiser. So you are walking them through and held hand holding hands with them.

Yep.

And then it's also it can be like really contentious sometimes. Oh my gosh. There are two occasions where I've literally had to be escorted through the house by the police. Oh my god. Because they're out on the front yard crazy.

Okay, one person's out, one's in. Wow.

Yeah.

All right. So so I just got like a bunch of questions from that. All right. So you were in the appraisal business prior to 2008 for a little bit now, what maybe like a decade or so. Yeah. Um 2008 hits. How much did the appraisal business drop off if you just had to guess when you started your company? Like how much less business was there?

Considerably. I I mean our numbers I know what we were doing probably dropped by 25 to 30 percent.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's I mean, it's kind of like what's been going on in real estate like the last few years. So 22 was kind of the year where like everything stopped, you know. 20 and 21 were like nuts. 22 had kind of chilled out in some areas. Yeah. Um nationally, sales dropped, I think, around like 25% or so uh in 23. Same kind of thing, you know, it was it was right around the same. I think it was a little less last year um than it was in 23. And this year they're saying it's gonna be pretty similar to what, you know, 2024 was, let's call it. So it's really not that different than what's going on right now. I think what was different about back then, because I was in the mortgage industry, and it was just so like dire because no one had ever gone through anything like that since like the Great Depression. Yep. So then what was happening is like like the mindset of people in the US economy was like the everything's gonna get burned down, like, you know, banks are just gonna close, there's gonna be a run-on banks, like all this stuff. And and there were some scary things back then, like the stock market completely crashed, and people's 401ks were worth like a third of what they were, you know, a year prior. Now, again, everything bounces back and and it did, but I think that's interesting just like to go back to that time, because I was in business at that time and remember how crazy it was, and then also what we're going through like right now. It's almost like the people who have already been through like 2000 Air Like, yeah, this kind of sucks right now, but you know, we've we've been through some nonsense.

Yeah, and and I think that's it. You know, you get a certain amount of perspective. Um, you know, the appraisal industry is going through some changes right now. I mean, we we have the appraisal, you know, management companies, but we also have they're coming out with new forms. Oh. And, you know, prior to that it was, you know, the ANSI measuring guidelines and and people were pulling their hair out over it. They didn't, you know, these people who had been appraisers for thirty years saying, I'm gonna quit because I don't want to learn how to measure to the tenth of an inch. You know, I said, Come on, you know, change.

Yeah, yeah.

And so now they're having that too, where you know, they're bringing in a new form. They're gonna get rid of the URAR form, which is the you know, the gold standard for appraisal. And they're gonna have this dynamic form and you know, there's gonna be more stuff that we have to collect while we're in uh in the field. And but basically it's uh in my opinion, uh Fanny and Freddie, they're data mining. Yeah. And they're having from us uh collect it for them.

And they're gonna have, you know, just like Zilla collects it from agents.

Exactly. And and property data collectors are coming out to do hybrid appraisals and desktops and all that stuff. Right. It's it's all about the data. And you know if appraisers would just realize that you know what we're at the head of the spear and we're the ones collecting the data if we could just use it for our own good, but we're appraisers.

Yeah you're right. Well that's like anything anything uh and and and actually it might be good for you. Like like the people that are uh able to pivot the the people that can like roll and and just be in stride with these types of changes sometimes it impacts them you know there's winners and losers when when any of this stuff kind of change happens and it's like if you're prepared for it and you can adopt and do it quickly sometimes you're just the the the the beneficiary in those types of scenarios.

Totally agree and I and I see that's what's happening right now with AI.

Yep.

You know there there are certain groups of appraisers that are trying to trying to move towards that and incorporate that into their into their practice but that's what my office is doing. We're using it I'm you know right now I've probably got three AI browsers open on my computer at the you know at the office, you know, helping. Are you like feeding it data like feeding an appraisal data what I'm using it for right now is uh you know to take large you know volumes of information and kind of distill it down for me. It's still I'm finding it's still a little bit unreliable when it comes to you know the analysis of the numbers you can't really get it to repeat or I I've had you know not I haven't had great luck in getting it to repeat. But it's really good for you know hey you know I want to kind of get this idea across or I'm I'm working on one right now where a property um is is being condemned by the township and FEMA's involved and you know we're you know trying to explain you know you know how does the FEMA angle tie into it. You know the house has been condemned but you know we're supposed to be looking at it as though you know it's not condemned and and just you know interesting little that is interesting. Yeah you know just things like that. But I think the with the appraisers, the ones who there are appraisers out there just like with any other industry, you know, saying you know it's gonna put us out of work. It's gonna put the appraisers who don't know how to use it out of work. And if you can use it and you know how to you know develop you know good prompts and things like that you're you're gonna be fine and actually it's gonna it's gonna help you build your company.

Agreed. Yeah it's a tool and it's Mr AI right here by the way.

Out of the two of us let's call it probably out of a lot of people it's all over from your insurance perspective how are you using it? All day every like all the time. You're gonna use it in in your marketing?

Yeah.

They have lunch together no but you can you can build you know you can you can they whisper sweet nothings. There's there's really I'm not saying it can replace everything. Definitely not but there's uh an aspect to it that can enhance everything it can enhance everything that we do. Totally and so why why would I not be doing it right why not create a custom GPT for me so that I I can load it in and I can fill it and I can prompt it and I can save my prompts like because to your point you're it's not going to be perfect and it can be uh and it can change the the output can be different but if you concentrate on getting that prompt so specific for how you need it to be and work on that and and revise it here and there and and make those little tweaks you can get it to a point where it's it's so much better. And and so why wouldn't I want you know we're we're we're really we're testing it on a lot of different levels from from our phone systems to our marketing to our policy review. I've done demos with a bunch of different companies that that offer it in and and different levels um it's it's fascinating to me in terms of what you can do with it and and in the end how it can help my business.

So AI is definitely going to change things for sure um a lot of people have fear it's gonna replace experts in their field or human beings which it will to an extent just like you know the smartphone in the cloud replaced the person that actually shuffled the papers, threw them in the scanner, put them in a file and put them in the file cabinet. There was no job anymore for that person. So it's definitely going to do the same thing and probably on a level that none of us can really truly understand right now just because it's it moves very fast and it's just it's just a way different thing I feel like that people in life and business have never experienced before. So it's gonna be interesting to see like where the next 10 years go. Hey everyone this is Tim your favorite bricks and risk co-host but don't tell Sean. I hope you're enjoying this episode and I'll get right back to it in a moment. Our audience grows through word of mouth so if you would please take a moment of your time and give us a review on the platform you're on that would be fantastic. Please also help spread the BR word by sharing your favorite episode with a friend. We greatly appreciate your time and trust now back to the show here's another question for you so you were in your partnership you decide to go out on your own when you go out on your own was it just Mike? Was it just you did you have another appraiser or appraisers or an admin or op per like marketing person? Like how did your company start?

Um two staffers came with me and the way we had structured anything uh before that all of our appraisers were independent contractors so they could work with whomever they wanted yeah and I kept the relationships with the the appraisers I wanted to work with like a real estate agent like even an insurance rep. Yeah yep yeah so so they they came they worked with me I know that some of them still work for you know with my old partner yeah which is fine you know just so long as you know you don't cross pollinate and exactly you know keep keep it clean. Um but yeah that's how we did it and actually that that model has been one of those things that's allowed us to to move with the market you know because when we grow I can just pull in more appraisers um when we contract I can also you know shed some of the appraisers knowing that you know I'm not their only appraise you know appraisal source that they're still gonna feed the cats and and you know get everything done but uh you know I can you know you know keep my my own thing going you know by by you know utilizing those contractors.

Yeah and I think that's cool. One thing you said earlier that I thought was interesting and just kind of like ties in with like everything we talk about here is like you're like, hey, I wasn't really connecting with those appraisal management companies right away. I was using the relationships I had and finding a way to say I'm not just an appraiser. I'm an appraiser who specializes in divorce or death or you know foreclosure, what what bankruptcy, tax appeal. And you kind of gave yourself like a differentiation when you first started which once you think about appraisal it's like who really does it? Most people do appraising they're just like okay you got work for me? Cool. I'll go out and do the work. And and they just go where they follow where the work takes them. And I think it was interesting that you had said I'm not going to do it that way. What's also interesting about that is that if you get too busy like you said from your relationships there's more appraisals than you have hours in the day. You can bring people in say why don't you go do this? I'll take some you take some and then we'll keep doing that you know provide the work is good you know up to my standard because this is my relationship and and I did that too in real estate you know building a brokerage was kind of the same thing. We didn't do Zillow we didn't really do the realtor.com we didn't really do any of that stuff we just did it through relationships content marketing you know reviews shaking hands getting business and then when you get too busy you just bring you bring more people in yeah the reviews are are key.

Yeah talk about that the getting Google reviews um you know it ha has been great it it's it's funny just a couple weeks ago we got a one star review and I looked at it as here's an opportunity to you know do a teachable moment here it was a review from a divorce situation this is me yeah so it was a review go ahead the the one star review yeah we had an episode about reviews oh really bad reviews aren't always bad reviews well they are a bad review is a bad review but number one my point was always that it lends credibility to the business entity because not every if you have all five stars people almost glance over and like oh like is are these all just paid like what what is it the one star the two star the three star gives you number one and I'll let you finish um let allows you to understand maybe what went wrong in that scenario if that was truly the case or number two an ability to explain your side of the story which perception sometimes is not always truthful you know and there may be another side of the story and it just allows an opportunity for the general public who's online looking to have a better understanding of what what maybe was delivered and and what the what your side of the story might be.

No I I totally totally agree with that because yeah we used it as kind of an education moment and just you know it was a situation where it was divorced and the the person who left the review was not a client. He was the other side so to speak. Yeah and we basically said you know while we value your your you know your review we'd like to point out that X, Y, and Z and this is why we did it and you know we have uh you know confidentiality with our client who was not you and we offer our confidentiality and our expertise to everybody you know that is our client.

It's basically someone got mad. Oh yeah and when someone gets mad they get emotional and they're they they Google your name and they boom yeah I'm gonna I'm gonna give it to them this way.

But yeah it was one of those things I mean when I first saw it I was like ah man but you know you kind of take a breath yeah you realize it's not the end of the world and you kind of work around it.

How have they all right so let's talk about how having a lot of Google reviews has kind of helped your business especially through relationships word of mouth but again it can't all be through relationships you have to have some lead gen some cold lead gen let's call it Google reviews are cold lead gen because you put them out there people you don't know are going to look at those things and people you don't know will eventually reach out to you and say can you help me?

Yeah and and and we get that all the time we do have a uh a form on our website where you can go in there and order an appraisal and one of those is where did you hear about us? Nice. And Google is one of the top things that pops up or when we get a phone call hey I was reading your reviews and I figured I'd give you a call. That's awesome. So so yeah it it definitely helps and it you know having it out there it and it's free. It's free. You know that that's the beauty time in put the work in.

Now again you you have to have good customer service if you don't your Google reviews are going to be crap.

And we we follow up with our clients I mean you you you know when you write a policy if you had a great rapport with somebody you feel like you really solved it and they're happy with what you did. Yep that's the that's the client that gets from us they'll get an email hey you know would you mind leaving us review great reviews are so helpful for us.

Right.

You know would you mind if I sent you a link to our review page? I don't want them fumbling around I send them the direct link.

Okay and you know nine out of ten times you're gonna get a response and you know what is the sequence is that an automated system that you use is it just a one-off email as a follow-up that you have as a uh like a reminder to do like what's that uh right now it's right now it's a single one-off email because I I'm a bit of a control freak and I want to be able to kind of you know monitor the the in and out of it and and and that interaction and it's it's been you know it's it's it's been you know really good the way it goes.

I think we've got 90 some reviews that are up there there. It's not easy. No it's but it's one of those things you make the conscious effort and it works. Yep. You know?

Yeah it's after uh after my breakup happened at Copper Hill and I started leading with my personal brand I'm like all those reviews belong to Copper Hill. I have to start from scratch. And just yesterday I was on a Zoom with my buddy Jared Blackwell who was also a guest what's up my man and he introduced me to his uh Google Business profile expert. He's been helping me kind of like you know reconstruct mine because it was tied to a lot of my old stuff and she came on right away she's like oh wow you already have 12 reviews and I'm like I'm looking at I was like man I kind of wish I had like 50. Well here's one for I left a lot in the dust.

Does Copper Hill online still exist or is that completely deleted?

It still actually has I think when you have a Google business profile um you when you close it down it just shows as like permanently closed.

So if those like here I go thinking again right are you gonna you're gonna start digging them up like in the graveyard and like all these zombie reviews and be walking around like if you had if they're alive and you're able to see them go in and just there's probably a data tool you can scrape it if you wanted to or you can go through manually and if your name Tim appears in the review yeah I would pull that person because you're gonna see who it is I would email them and say hey listen you left me I haven't gotten there yet but yes it's just a suggestion.

No no what you're saying is exactly what I plan to do but keep going because and then it's really good thought.

So the person's there you know the person you dealt with the person you have a relationship with a person they left your review already do you mind doing this again under this we close this down yes roll it over yeah no it's a great we can do exactly I know yeah no it is at this point yeah I probably didn't fully think about the steps yet but I did think about like going that is true that's where you learn I'll go do that tonight. The morning yeah okay uh so I'll be up until about three in the morning you could get someone on Fiverr to come through pull the names and send out the emails uh for about $20 and how many about $7.50 to do it today they're like done done.

I would even think there's some sort of AI agent you can do to get in there.

Yeah I think so too. I appreciate that. All right so so here's another one. One thing you could said about what you love doing about appraising is one the people you meet their stories and the architecture that's not typically what I hear from appraisers. I feel I find most appraisers I meet to just be very focused on just I got to get these reports done. If I do X amount of reports I make y amount of dollars and it's just this you wake up, you know, you have your routine and you don't want any nonsense. What is it about just like meeting people in their stories that has been interesting in the appraising world that's what keeps it human.

I mean you know sure we're we're we're looking at buildings we're putting values on buildings but you know to just be sitting there crunching numbers and and grinding all day I mean granted I I do my fair amount of grinding and you know but I mean you you've been on our website or what's the the Facebook page that we have and you know I'll post pictures of really interesting architectural details that I that I see you know when I'm in and around this you know the city and the area because it's one of the things I've always liked houses. I worked on roofs and you know and there's always been a you know an architectural aspect of it that I've enjoyed and to be able to get through these properties and you know get through a house that was you know designed by Walter Dorham or something like that.

Yeah something amazing.

Yeah and and then to hear the stories about you know like some of these people you know oh yeah our family built the house and we've been here for you know three generations and wow yeah you know that that kind of stuff is is is really interesting.

That is cool. That is a cool thing about Philly.

When you were doing the roofing was it more the it was more the specialty roofs was it like a a slate roof and like slate copper cedar all that stuff I mean just imagine you know we were maintaining the houses in Chestnut Hill so it was that it was that kind of that kind of thing. But yeah that was fun. That's awesome.

What's your social media page look like do you capture a lot of that on social media? Do you use that as a tool that's a good question.

Yeah I I use social media I have a group on Facebook because I'm old and I haven't figured out groups are great.

I mean they still today a lot of people say the groups are like a great way to go because you have a captive audience.

Well and and that's it I think that we have like 900 some people in our group right now and they tend to be you know real estate agents in in you know the Philadelphia area and my group started with um it's called uh ask the affiliate praiser and it's on Facebook and it started with a place where agents could come and you know ask a question but I worked it that there were um a number of group a number of guys in the group and they were appraisers from around the country so here were guys that would answer questions but they weren't necessarily in competition with me. And like like one of the guys one of the guys who's in the group is a guy named Woody Fincham and he's an appraiser down in Virginia does high-end stuff like horse farms shout out to Woody Woody's phenomenal and he's just a brilliant he's he's one of those guys that when I have a question I call Woody. That's awesome. And yeah and there's another guy in the in the group Mark Bueller he's out in California. Oh very cool and he does you know solar so he can explain to people in Philadelphia that solar doesn't add value. No right right yeah we don't have enough sun for that's uh those the those that one but uh solar yeah but no so so we've got this you know this group and and people will you know post questions and you know and I've got to add things to just kind of keep things rolling but yep it you know it's it's a good resource and it's out there.

So how how long have uh has the group been going? Like how long did it take to get up to 900 people in that very specific group?

I think it's six or seven years six seven we're back there. Yeah.

Well that goes to show we're doing pretty damn well with our LinkedIn group because we again LinkedIn another tip LinkedIn has a great group feature um you can do it for like your company you could you know again this is what we always wanted to do with this podcast is we wanted to turn it into a show. Now some people do podcasts and they're like hey they're meeting people they're shaking hands and they get a deal or they get another relationship and they just leave it at that and they do the bare minimum. And I think with us again it accomplishes that we're meeting lots of people we would wouldn't meet we're getting business we're helping people but I think us doing it every week not missing like enjoy doing it throw some humor into it like have a brand and you know just like having fun with it just it it makes it well it's building a community.

We're building a community exactly and we have people that follow us people that watch us whatever their way of interacting of appraisers that's what I was just going to say it's the same exact thing. And and and to the point where your community allows you to become educated and use it as an educational as a resource yeah we do the same thing. You know having people on the show that we can tap their shoulder yeah hey what do you think of this? Oh yeah how would you do this and it could be specific about our podcast specific about our show like how do you do this how do you how do you recommend we do this or if it's business driven as well you know calling you know Evan Siegel about a loan or something like that. Shout out to Evan Siegel Siegel Financial um just those different things is immeasurable.

Well and and you put yourself out there you're a resource you're not just someone who's trying to you know sell them something no and you know hey I can't help you but I have someone who can yes connecting yeah being a good connector being someone who will take five or 15 minutes out of their day to answer someone's question.

You call Woody Woody's that guy like you're like yo man I need this answer. He's like sure what what's your question? He will stop what he's doing and he will answer your question. Probably just like Bueller Bueller um out in California you call him and it's the same deal. You're gonna get they're going to take the time to help you out and people you know to you all the time to me all the time in our industries because our industries have other industries tied to them like someone asked me about lending or title or appraisal and I'm just dropping names or if I have a question hey we had the question about the property in brewery town I'm calling you like that that alone I feel like is such a great reason to start a community. Part of the reason why we started this show is that now we can kind of like really talk about it and have it all like out there in video form and audio form. And it's just it's such a good feeling to just know that you're you're helping like drive people to the spot where they're like it's either helping them with their job or their life or both. And I and I think that is is a great way to go. Social media is so great and is podcasting has taught us that too.

I was thinking social media specific to Instagram for you I'm like I'm I'm like thinking in my head because I had this conversation with a a masonry contractor the other day. Jimmy uh no not him uh another one um But I was like, man, you do some like really cool projects. Like, I'd imagine your social media feed is just like littered with these awesome like the work you're doing. The work, the projects, the buildings. Like with you, I'd imagine you've been in every neighborhood. You've seen all the different houses. You, you know, like I was just thinking of yours being an Instagram feed of this unbelievable pictures and sequences of like different things you've seen, or like there's a hole in the floor that you know. Goes to where.

Yeah. No, and that's one thing. I just haven't I haven't taken an Instagram yet. I have an Instagram account. I haven't done jack with it.

Yeah.

But uh maybe I'll get that rolling now for you.

Get an AI tool. I'll tell you what, pop N8N, because it's an autopsylator. Just tie them to, and it can pull like if you just had your pictures somewhere, it can co it can pull, extract them out, and then post through.

This guy's new to Instagram, but we call him the Doc King. And we'll we'll talk about that on another episode. But what I will say is that Instagram, because I only got on it at the start of quarantine. So I was never on it. So it's been about five years.

Oh, and by the way, you want to call it the IG with your kids. Oh, the Ig. It really makes it they don't like it when you call it the Ig.

Not the IG anymore, the IG. I'm gonna say Instagram.com on the World Wide Web, son.

Um no, I will I will agree with Sean that Instagram, if you have a lot of uh visual images visual and or videos, um, oh, it's huge. Like your description has to be like absolutely nothing. This is why I personally don't really dig Facebook that much, because Facebook is too much text, it's too much nonsense, there's there's just too much too much time.

Too much. Is Twitter on 140 characters too much?

No, Twitter I actually liked. I actually had a pretty good following on Twitter until I was just like, why am I on this thing?

But Instagram I think I have more I think my business page has more followers on Twitter than I do on Instagram.

Yeah. You're probably right. Um, but yeah, I would agree with Sean. I think that's a good move. Um Instagram. All right, so so your tip, your tip for listeners and watchers was know your value and what you bring to the table. And you would said know when to say no and guard your time. Why why was that something you wanted to share?

Especially with with the with the appraisal industry, a lot of people view appraisals as one size fits all. It's a commodity. And they're you know, we get a phone call and the first question out of someone's mouth is, What was it cost?

Yeah.

I you know, it it's it's like you know, going to a realtor and saying, you know, what's a house cost?

Right. Or a mortgage person, what's the rate?

Exactly. Exactly. Well, there's what it's worth it to you.

Well, there's some other factors that we might need in order to give you that extra. It's this.

But uh but yeah, so so you know, once you once you get that and you know, you know what your time is worth and you realize that you know what, maybe you don't want to deal with that the that smaller headache stuff. And sometimes, you know, taking the more interesting projects, they're more lucrative, they're more engaging. Um, and they build your credibility too. I I you know, you know, that's what that's one of the things. But um one of the things that, you know, I'm always about guard your time. Okay, because there were people, there are people around you in your life, you know, in your business that will just suck your time up. 100%. You know, and you've you've got to know when to cut those people off, either, you know, for for good, or at least, you know, when you know that they're starting around that corner and it's gonna be a 30-minute conversation, right? You need to know when to say, hey, okay. And it also involves, you know, having the right answer, maybe ready ahead of time.

Yep.

You know, kind of knowing what you're gonna get into, and to say, hey, here's something I'm gonna buy back a little of my time.

So we really good advice. In our office, we do this all the time. We at least uh uh have this conversation. You tell people to F off? We do not. Oh, okay. Uh we talk about the value of time because we have clients that maybe um let's just say we hear from them often, and so we kind of have to make the evaluation as to how much time can we spend with this client. And so, to your point, is being preloaded in almost anticipation of okay, this next conversation with this client, how are we gonna deal with it? You know what I mean? Um, because time is just it's just the most valuable thing that you have.

Can't make it, can't get it back.

And so when you're distributing it, you have to be cognizant, be thoughtful of, be tactful, understand why, like you had said, you know, if you know it's someone, you know them well enough. Yeah, even if you don't know them, you can usually get a sense in the beginning, if you know people well enough, be like, okay, I don't think this is going in the right direction.

And to your point, like we have, you know, a cold prospect that calls in the office, hey, I need this. You know, we talked about this, we do an evaluation right in the very start of dealing with that person to see if they're going to be a good fit or not. To disqualify you, disqualify. Yes, absolutely. And in five questions, if you know the if there's a contractor that's been operating for five years and never had insurance before, it's probably not a good fit.

Come on in, let me unlock the deadbolt for you. Would you like a beer?

Yeah. Um probably not a good fit for us, but we we can send them somewhere where they're going to get coverage and be a better fit for them and knowing that in advance.

Exactly. Yeah. Being that resource that, you know, I'm not going to deal with you, but this guy will deal with you.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, you know, still helping, still, but not being the person that helps. That's no, that's really good advice. Um, all right. Your quote, I absolutely loved. It's don't do dumb shit. And I love that. And you would say this is, you know, this is kind of like you, you know, you being a dad and looking out for your kids. And sometimes it is just that simple. I mean, we're all parents. You have five, he's got three, I have one. And we're all at different stages of being parents. But sometimes it really is just finding a way to get through not only to your kids, let's say, but just people you know in a very simple way, using profanity sometimes is effective, and just saying, like, like, don't do that. Like, why why did that one stand out for you?

Well, it it's like like you said, I have five kids. They range from 22, 21, 19, and then I have 15-year-old twins.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Four boys and a girl.

He's getting to that point though, where he's starting to be like, okay, everyone's got what they need.

See, see, we had three, and my wife said, let's go for four, and we got twins. So we're right where you are. But but I mean, there's there's not a weekend that goes by where I'm telling somebody don't do dumb shit.

Yeah.

And it doesn't work all the time. Sure. But at least that's the you know, the last tap on the forehead before they're leaving. That's the last thing that they're hearing from you, and hopefully it resonates a little bit.

Yeah.

And, you know, it's a point too where, you know, I say it to their friends as they're, you know, getting out of the car. You know, just don't do dumb shit. And, you know this past weekend, my one son was down the shore and he did some dumb shit.

Nice.

And yeah. We all have. Well, you get the phone call from the police.

Yeah. They're like, oh, is this Mr. Coyle? You're like, uh yes it is, officer. Pretty much. What did he do now? Yeah. Yeah, he did dumb shit. That's what my parents said.

But what do you do now? And well, and it's like I always tell my kids too, you know what? You may not know who's looking at you, but they know who you are.

Yep.

And and you know, when you your kids are playing sports, they've got their name on the back of their shirt. Yeah. Okay. That's your name that they're wearing. Okay. So I'm, you know, I'm constantly telling these guys, okay, you may not think that so-and-so knows who you are, but my one said, who you are. Hey, Riley, you're the you're the red-headed coil. They know who you are. Right. You know, no hiding there. Not at all. Not at all.

My mom, she would get uh people would come up to her all the time. Say, what an angel. No, no, no. Sean Haley is saying uh oh, Mooney? Your last name's Mooney. Do you do you have a son? And she'd be like, Yeah, his name's Tom. Yeah, shout out to Tug. What's up, man? And they'd be like, Oh, you know, uh, you know, I know this guy, Sean. And she'd be like, Yeah, yeah, it's my other son.

Distant relative.

Yeah. Yeah. That's but it's uh that's Lessau Boys will be gentlemen. You're right. That's what it is.

Boys will be boys. Let's have boys will be gentlemen, yeah. So great.

All right, 97.

Oof. 87.

Yeah. All right. So before we shut this one down, why don't you tell our listeners and watchers where they can learn more about you and everything you got going on?

Oh, um, you feel free to give us a call. Um, our number is 215-836-5500. Our email or our email is appraisals at coilappraisals.com.

Simple.

And the website is uh the coilgrouplc.com. Nice. Facebook group? What was the name? Facebook group, ask the Philly Appraiser. Cool. And uh, I appreciate it. Thank you. Had a good time. Thanks for being here.

That's all we have for this one, folks. Thank you for tuning in again to another episode of Bricks and Risk. See you next week. Thank you for joining us on another episode of Bricks and Risk. Our goal is that you walk away with one or two valuable nuggets, and we greatly appreciate you sharing your time with us today. You can find all BR episodes on Spotify, Apple Music, YouTube, and anywhere else you get your podcast content. Until next time, keep learning and keep growing.