How To Hit Singles & Doubles in Franchising with Mike Oberholtzer | Episode 103

There's a fast food chain in Queens and Bronx called Golden Crust. Okay. All they do is Jamaican food, but like the it's it's so good. And he would get my expense reports and have to approve all these golden crusts. Like, dude, you know you can go these golden crusts. He's like, you know you can go to nicer places when you're out. I was like, I'm good. I don't care. I like that. This is nice. This is nice. That oxtail was to die for. Anyway.

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Right here, guys. Reach out to John Stax and his team at Property Management Redefine. We'll take good care of you. I'm Tim Garrety. And I'm Sean Mooney. Today, Sean, we have a friend of a friend, local expert in investing and franchising. We have Mike Oberholzer, the VP of franchise development at Homevestors of America. How are you doing today, Mike?

Good. Glad to be here. Well in the house.

Thanks for being here. And I did have a note in here that says also known as We Buy Ugly Houses. If you're familiar with those signs and ads, that's the same company. So Mike is a seasoned franchise development leader with nearly two decades of experience driving growth through strategic partnerships, acquisitions, and franchise expansion. He has held leadership roles with franchise giants such as Anywhere Real Estate, MITS, and HR Block, where he specializes in awarding new franchises, conversions, and MA opportunities. Mike has spent his career scaling seasoned and emerging brands while educating investors and entrepreneurs about the power of franchising. As the VP of franchise development, Mike is passionate about empowering teams and creating systems that deliver real results. So if you're gonna work for We Buy Ugly Houses, my guess is that you have an interest and that you really enjoy real estate investing. Yeah. So so how did you get into your business?

So, you know, I I probably I always had an interest in real estate, uh, but what took me to Homevestors was actually more of a uh because my franchise background, because it's a it's a kind of a unique uh franchise. So i you I think when people think of franchises, they think of Subway, Chick-fil-A, you know, that kind of Mickey D's. Mickey D's. Um and you could call this the Mickey D's of uh real estate, you know, franchising, but and so they were looking for someone that had, you know, some real estate experience, uh certainly a uh uh uh interest in real estate, and then the franchising side because it's kind of interesting. People will, you know, we we get people that are exploring all kinds of franchises, a senior care, uh a gym, and then they're gonna look at home vestors.

I'm like, well, and then and so is that like we want to do a franchise. This is our laundry list of options, and you're one of their options, yeah.

So that's one avenue. But, you know, when I I what I've always known about real estate, what I believe to be true, is like it was almost the anti-franchise, if you will. Like people go into real estate for financial independence and and and that kind of thing. And I think franchising has this sort of perception that it's handcuffs and you gotta buy your tomatoes from here, you gotta buy your this from here. How do how do those two things of something that's so well known as being a path to independence versus something that is more known as structure and systems and you know, maybe even big brother, if you will. And so um actually we've kind of pivoted our we still we still want to talk to those people that are looking at franchises per se, but we've really leaned in more to the to the real estate side, it just makes more sense. Um, I don't know how you feel about uh mentioning other podcasts on your podcast, you know. So we've we do shout-outs all the time. All right. So, you know, we recently uh sort of partnered with Bigger Pockets because I think a lot of their um they have a lot of similarities in the sense that they have a lot of new and aspiring investors who are just kind of like maybe poking around.

Shout out to Bigger Pockets, yeah, yeah.

They're they're they're up there fantastic. Um but you know, it's there's so many different levels of where somebody is on this journey, right? I just like I got five thousand dollars and I think I want to go put that in a syndicate with somebody else, or I just lost my job, I got this, I got a bunch of money, what should I do next? So there's so many different ways to get into it. Um but anyway, the the idea to kind of I don't want to shy away from the fact that we're franchised because there's a lot of benefit to them, and we could probably talk about that later. But I also want to let people know that still very much your business, right? You can create your own buy box if you want to build a rental portfolio, if you want to do fix and flips, if you just want to wholesale, um you can do that within this sort of um you know replicatable structure that we've built at Home Vestors.

Can you talk a little bit more about that? When I think of like we buy what is it? Ugly houses. Come on, dude. We buy ugly houses. Well known. Yeah.

You never saw that billboard?

It's like have some more coffee.

Yeah.

Um where was I going with this?

I don't know.

I think uh people think about a corporate entity buying ugly houses. Yeah that's what I think.

So that's what everybody so that's so when it's that's an interesting perspective.

So that's my biggest I don't think that, but I'm in the industry.

Yeah, no, it's actually one of my biggest um hurdles is that people have oh yeah, I see your sign all the time. They just assume we're some sort of institutional buyer. Yeah, um, and even at the bigger pockets, we went to BP Con um a few weeks ago and set up a booth and all that stuff. BP Con. Bigger pockets. They actually they do that, yeah, yeah. No way.

Where was it?

Uh Vegas. Yeah. I think we might have to go next. Yeah, yeah. Oh, you have to go. I mean, even just to like talk to the lenders. I mean, they they got really good vendors. That's great. Um uh do you guys know Chris Voss by any chance? Um, he was uh he's uh he was the keynote speaker.

He was Oh, was he the author?

Uh yeah, so he was an FBI. So for two. I've not read any of his books, as most people know. I do not read a lot of books. I mean, I get goose bumps thinking about it. It just gets fired up. Yeah. Um, anyway, he talks about like how to equate negotiating at the dining room table with hidden negotiating with the Taliban to get like Americans back. Anyway, which could be similar if you've ever done either of this. Right, right. But anyway. A five-year-old that won't eat their vegetables. Right, right. Osama Bela. Um, so so that's the biggest problem. People are like, I see your signs. And then they'll they'll walk up to our booth or whatever and say, Can I get on your wholesale list? And I was like, Well, how about if I can get how about creating your own?

Right, exactly, right.

Can I get I can get you the properties before they make it there? And you can buy, and it's like, and then and then it's all of a sudden like, wait, what do you mean? You know, how and then it's like, well, you know, you could be sitting at a dining room table in a hoarder situation smelling smells you never smelled before, smelling things you never smell before, and you're gonna try to buy that house. And they're like, No, I gotta, oh, somebody else does that, and I buy. Oh, you can for $30,000, $50, $100,000 more, you know, whatever. Um, so anyway, it's a very common thing. So I am uh I'm actually starting to work with our ad agency and making sure it gets past legal and trademarks and all that kind of stuff. But I want the billboards and the science to say we buy ugly houses, dot, dot, dot, and so can you, you know, so you can kind of have like you know, tie that with you, yeah. You know, um, and then uh anyway, so yeah, it's it is a it's a challenge because people see it and they just think, um, well, I don't have a house to sell, or I'm not buying one.

So, but I am I guess because too is you're then associated with the other people that do Ian Walsh was talking about that when he lenders. Um when he uh did this, what do they call stick-up signs or whatever? Yeah, so like when you're people yeah, go ahead. When your name or your ear when you're with them, I guess the association in my mind is like, oh well, they're all just just buying houses.

Yeah, well, so so we you know we've started we did it 30 years ago. We put up the first billboard that says we buy ugly houses, and every town now has some sort of version we buy houses or I'll buy your house for cash, or yeah, um, and you know, our we buy ugly houses actually is trademarked, and but um, you know, it did become sort of synonymous with uh for every flipper out there who wants to buy, you know. So um, and then the other thing, the other challenge that I have, you know, is that we have this very sort of professional business in a box that almost anybody can plug into. Um, but I'm competing with people on Facebook selling $20,000 admission into a private Facebook group to teach somebody how to skip trace. Like, and and people are buying it all day long. So these have these gurus that are um and I shouldn't do the air quotes, I guess, because there are good ones out there that really are, but there's other ones that are.

There's a lot of pretenders that are just selling, selling the dream, they don't really have the experience or the knowledge yet. Right. They're trying to get by on you know on charisma or sales skills or whatever.

Mark, yeah, Mark is fine.

That's you know that's where we live. We're in the United States of America, and if you know how to sell, you can make money.

Absolutely. And if you know how to use Instagram and Cap Cut, you can be a multimillionaire. Um But the the problem is that people think that if they learn skip tracing, they know they learn how to drive around a neighborhood and looking for tall grass or trash cans that have been out too long, like that's gonna be their big secret. Um, or how to look at the MLS and you know, look to see how long it's been on and all that kind of stuff. But you have to imagine there's tens of thousands of hundreds of thousands of people, there's AI scouring MLSs looking for these diamonds in the rough. And so when I talk to people about, you know, most of our deals don't make it to MLS, right? And so um that's that's one of those things that people are like, oh, okay, I I'll hear more about that.

All right, all right, I got a question. So I'm an investor developer myself, small scale. Um so in your eyes, why would like someone who's already investing in real estate in the space, why would they consider like a franchise with like a a home investors? Like what would be the uh if if I'm coming to you right and I'm saying I already I'm already in this space and you're saying that's good, but what kind of things would you say to me to figure out if I was a good good customer to buy a franchise?

That's a good question. And that's and it's a particularly good question because that's where I'm leaning towards now. That's where our those are the people I want to go after. Now, but I do have some criteria. Um if if you got uh you know a hundred doors under ownership, if you or if you're doing 10 to 20 fix and flips a year, um, your capital situation is great, everything's good, there may not be a great value. Um but if you are somebody who's like, well, I got a couple rental properties because and it was like a that's like I bought my first house, and then instead of selling it to buy my next house, I kept that. Now it's a rental, and yeah, or um I've done a couple fix and flips.

So people like organically doing it.

Yeah, yeah. Um it's more like somebody who is so I think I can add value to what you do, um, but I think it's probably more value to the um hobbyist that wants to make it a business. Yeah, okay, that's that's a good way to put it. So we have we have a we have a lot of things. I could list the whole value proposition, all the great things about it. There's a couple big ones that I think are that are compelling to anybody, regardless of sort of where they are in their real estate investing journey. One is um obviously the fact that the phone rings to you of a seller saying, I want to sell my house quickly for cash. My parents passed away, and I have to get rid of, you know, whatever that story. There's so many. Yeah, that's common. So that's so that's hard to get as an independent person, right? You know, your phone ringing with inbound leads, inbound seller, right? Um inbound, not outbound. Um, the other thing is the access to capital. So, like, you know, franchisee comes in, their biggest expense is the franchise fee, um, and then their monthly advertising spend to get that phone to ring. And we guide that spend. But so then they go, they go, they get a contract, and they're like, you know, we gotta close in 10 days, gotta do a cash deal. So we have, you know, lenders that are private. Private lenders, yeah, that are, you know, some are exclusive to us, some are, you know, we work with other of the big guys. Oh, that's cool. But then they're gonna go give them um the capital to buy it and renovate it, um, you know, and then do typical bridge loans, you know, sort of short-term, you know, interest-only payments.

So that way they can all right, so let's paint the picture. If I'm working with you guys and someone calls me and says, you know, I'm selling a house that I don't want or don't need, I don't want to list it publicly with a realtor, let's say, and um I'm like, cool, I'll buy it for cash, but I don't have any cash because I'm new to home investors, I'm new to investing, whatever. What you guys do is you provide private financing for that person to buy that property in a short period of time, so now they have it under control. Yes. And then when they have that under control, they can do pretty much three things. Yeah, they can fix and flip it, they can fix and hold it, or they can just sell the opportunity to someone else who's looking for a deal. And if they get it for a good deal and they're like, I could sell it for more than what I got it for, then then that's more the wholesaling model where they can make a spread based on what someone else would pay them for the opportunity that they just bought.

That's 100% right. So I think there's I mentioned the person that bought their first home and then turned that into a rental and all that kind of stuff. There's also people that have, you know, a couple hundred thousand dollars in the bank or whatever, and thinking I should invest in real estate with this money. And, you know, our path is well, consider still investing in real estate, but don't use that. You know, use that either for advertising, use it for um, let's go, let's go get and we and we really coach our franchisees to start out, you know, hitting singles and doubles. I don't really feel comfortable, somebody with no experience, even though we give them a lot of training, support, and mentorship, going in and picking up a big fix and flip. Go go get some wholesale deals, re-re uh refill the coffee, learn the game a little bit, make a little money, make a little money, um, and then sort of you know evolve into the fix and flips or or even holding or whatever the case might be.

It reminds me of Wealth Juice when you were asking like who's a good candidate for them. When we had Corey on from Shout out to Corey Jacobson from Wealth Juice, um they kind of talk, he kind of talked about like are they the right coach and community for the people who have a hundredth doors? Probably not. Probably not. That's not who they're that's not who they're gonna help. Right. Where their bread and butter is where number one, the person that wants to get into their first, right? Right, which could be like a lot like you guys, like, hey, you got some money, you want to get into real estate, yeah, kind of have a blueprint, we can bring you in and kind of get you going on your way. Yep. And and that path to like five or ten units becomes a lot quicker with you guys. Absolutely. Um, than you would on your own.

A hundred percent. Because even, you know, somebody who's gonna try to do it on their own, usually a new investor bank, is is gonna limit the amount of loans you can have out anyway. And and we, you know, we lift that a little bit, you know, be and and we can go to a higher um percentage of ARV than somebody that's like doing their first bridge loan. So there's a there's definitely a lot of ways to the other thing is too is um this is really unique in franchising. Um, is that our franchise agreement is only five years. Um most are 10 or 15. Oh yeah, they didn't I didn't know that. Yeah, and so um it's it's we're not trying to trap people. Like there, we got a lot of people that come in for five years and they hit their hilt their hit their what they wanted to do and don't renew their franchise agreement, but now they got their rental portfolio and they you know all that kind of stuff. It works, and then we have other franchisees that renew every five years and have been there since the day we opened our doors. Yeah, wow. Um those folks are what we usually um the people that have been there longer end up usually going into what we call a development agent role. They're still a franchisee, but one of the benefits of our business is the community. So we have 940-ish franchisees across the country. Oh wow. Um, and and we have about uh and of that, there's about 50 of these DAs, these um these seasoned, really, really strong coaches and mentors.

So like maybe like five percent of your people are like really, really like the top tier.

Yeah. And and if they they have an acumen to want to share that with people. And so we attach every new franchisee that comes in to one of those schools. So that's their they go to their first five appointments, they they help them show what to look for. Don't miss you know, you can make a couple mistakes in this business. So we just we want to do everything we can to mitigate that.

All right, so let me let me pivot a little bit. Yeah, yeah. So you have a franchising background.

Yeah.

So, you know, it's a pretty specific business model. Like, why franchising?

Oh.

It was an accident. Um Do you really want to go down this path?

Yes, yes, we do. With that reaction, yeah.

Let's now we have to. Yeah. All right. How how personal people get pretty personal here. Say what you want, man. All right, all right. So uh so it's 2020 and uh four, let's say, and I was uh loading trucks with milk at Lehigh Valley Dairy Farm in Lansdale. And uh during that time period, I was uh spending more time at the local tavern and that kind of thing than I should have at work. And the last day, I one day they were like, dude, you can't be here. And I lost my job. I was like union, I was a teamster. I thought this is what I'm gonna do for the rest of my life. I was like, this is great benefit.

So the opportunity was taken from you.

Take it from me. Um well, yeah, opportunity was taken from me, but a lot more opportunity it presented itself. So on that day, uh May 2nd, 2004, was the last time I drank. So that's so that's what you know. That's I I knew that was the reason. So over 20 years sober. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Congrats. Thanks. And I knew that was going to be, I was like, all right, I gotta start there because I just lost this job that I thought was gonna do forever. Um and and then I went to the newspaper, it's still a newspaper to look for jobs. I was like, everybody used to always say you'd be really good at sales. Um, and I now I know like sales can very much be taught. And I, you know, I know why people say that, but they they were just saying it because I guess maybe I talked a lot or something. I don't know, which is actually the opposite, I think, of sales. But anywho, um sorry, I don't want to. Yeah, no, you're good, but so um I found this uh job that said um mortgages and no experience necessary. We'll check it out in 2004, yeah.

Okay, this is a hot time for mortgage.

It's a good time to find it. As I find this little little broker shop in in Horsham, uh Pennsylvania for our, you know, further listeners. And I go in and they're like, here's leads. Um, you gotta call all them, and yeah, we'll tell you what to do once you get somebody on the phone and how to fill out a application and all that stuff. I was like, okay. Um I'm just there. No, no, uh, maybe I got like I think I got like a $20,000 base salary or draw.

And then you're like a loan officer, a starting loan officer.

Exactly right. Um first month, nothing. Um, you know, guys, so at home now, like and you're just calling, calling, calling. Just calling and calling, calling. They only cover they only covered two states, Pennsylvania and Maryland. So I was calling these two states. Um I remember it was leads to loans. They were like penny leads or something. Um and you know, I had a I had a three year old and like a brand new baby at home. Like, so I I quit drinking two weeks before my son was born. He's a junior at West Virginia now, he's 21 years old. But um, so um Um second month, nothing. Still nothing. I'm like, uh this is it can't go on forever like this. And then the third month, I made like $10,000 in commission. Damn. And I was like, boom. Yeah.

In 2004. That's that's a nice especially that young too. That's that's a nice chuck lunch.

It was like it was c I couldn't believe it. Now, my uh my later in life, you know, my conscience got to me a little bit because you know we were given you know jumbo loans to people with 540 credit scores with no income, you know, and then 08 and 09, I was like, damn, did I have something to do with that? Anyway, I don't dwell on that. So anyway, um, so I was like, all right, this is cool, but like the lifestyle was not great. I was there, you know, all hours, and um I went back to the newspaper, I was like, I can't do this forever. And I saw this job that said finance and sales experience needed. I was like, I got that. Three I got three months of that, you know. I went from loading trucks of milk to finance, I that's kind of finance mortgages, and I was selling. Um, and it was Copman Transmission. Um it was a regional like yeah, transmission repair franchise.

Um, it's a franchise.

Yeah, yeah. Interesting. Almost everything is. I could blow your mind on what's out there as a franchise. You'd be like, that's a franchise, yeah.

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So, common transmission, a franchise um in an automotive space, they were looking for um somebody to help package loans for their new franchisees. That's ended up being the job wise.

Oh, so they wanted your finance experience just so when the person came in about the franchise, you helped with the lending part, like we can write a loan to buy the franchise. Yeah, talk to me.

Yeah.

That's cool.

But that's crazy too because you were doing loans and you didn't go into that knowing that it was like a loan position. You didn't even know what the job was.

That's crazy. I had no idea. And I was so I became uh an SBA 7A loan expert. Oh, wow. Um, and I was helping people with their business plans, their projections, packaging the deals. The problem was, I think I can say, yeah, it's all right. Um, Common at the time had one of the highest SBA default ratings of any franchise out there, and so nobody banks wanted to do it. So the the sales part came in because like, well, not only do you have to figure out how to get these loans, but you have to like go sell it to the banks so they can like say, like, you know, we just had a we just went on a little bit of a bread run. And so I did. I found you know, PNC did everything east of the Mississippi, uh Comeric, or somebody did so. Anyway, it was really good. And I was like, all right, this is cool, this is fun. And then, you know, I mean maybe a year into the role, um, Cottman and Amco merged. And Amco was the much bigger, you know, double A B MCO. And I said, I would like to sell franchises, and they're like, um, all right. Um, and so it was kind of similar to um why'd you do that?

Do you saw the opportunity when the because probably were you was it when you were helping with like the business planning and like helping people like envision what they could do with Copman? Yeah, you're like, now I can sell the dream, not just the financing, but the actual opportunity itself.

Yes, and I saw what the sales guys were driving and all that kind of stuff. So that was part of it too. Okay, all right. So that was Ferrari's is a little bit of it. It wasn't quite Ferraris, but it was it was better than whatever thing I was at the time. So there, but it was very much that. Like I didn't I'll I'll I got I'll come back to that because it's it's relevant. Um, and so again, I got a stack of leads and a phone, and they dropped my base salary and said, you know, welcome to franchise sales. I had uh I was in a cube and I had a great guy next to me. His name was Mike Maggett, and um he'd hear me on the phones, he'd yell over, here's what you say next, here's what you say next. Um yeah, the sales manager, but he was just in his office, never really, never really came out. Um, and uh he really helped me. You know, he took me under his wing. He was older, he'd been around, he'd been at Amco for 10 years. Amco has a had a great culture, they very successful. Um, awesome founder. Sorry, I don't want to go off on this. Anthony A. Martino Company. So that was his name, Amco, A-A-M-C-O. Interesting. Um he was just a true entrepreneur. He ended up, he's like, you know, we're fixing transmissions, we should do bodies, but uh uh collision repair. And he changed he flipped around the letters of Amco and made Mako. Um and then he's like, Yeah, and then he totally off track, he was like, you know, he he had grandkids and little kids, and you know, his his kids were having trouble finding places to put them in schools and all that stuff, so he's like, I'll um uh I'll start one of those. And his daughter lived on Goddard Street, so he started. Yeah, so anyway, so that's you know, a fun fact.

Yeah, I'm really good friends with one of the local guys who does Goddard school franchising around here.

No way. Owns a franchise or does the franchise?

Does what I do? Maybe. He uh maybe he owns the franchise. I think I don't know. I'd have to talk to him a little bit more, but he uh he goes out, finds them, and starts them.

Oh wow. Did you feel comfortable saying his name?

Uh Mike Thompson, yeah.

Mike Thompson, sounds fam, it does sound familiar. Interesting.

Um he started the one in Ambler, he's got another one going in Quakertown, he's got another one. I didn't even know that was a franchise.

Yeah, I know. I'm telling you, everything is.

Yeah.

Um, he's a franchisee, I think, then maybe.

Probably a franchisee.

Yeah, which is awesome. I mean, he owns multiple of those. That's a big real estate play there. I mean it's a you know it's it's a two million dollar investment, but you buy the building, you buy the big thing. Well, you own it because you have an asset. Yeah.

Anyway. And Goldfish Swim is friends with Frank Pelopoli.

Oh, really? Yeah. That's where Ellis swims.

He went to used to swim and is about to swim again. But I didn't know that he lives in Michigan, but he he bought the territory in Pennsylvania and New Jersey, and now he has the opportunity to do whatever he wants.

Yeah. All kinds of swim schools out there now, franchise, great British swim schools. Yeah, anyway. Um so um, so then I I did it and it was awesome. And I and I was good at it. And um, and I was I wasn't a great salesperson, but I was uh I was a I was But you had Mike Magic. I had Mike Magic. Yeah, no, Mikey. Fuck me up, man. What do I say? And he was good at it, the best. Um I will say too, not to bring down the tone, though he had a uh at like 55, you know, I expect a heart attack driving to work one day. And he's yeah, but anyway, so anyway, yeah. I'll bring it back. I'll bring it back. It's all good. Um so um and then and then we just and then I went on from there. I went on to other franchises. I spent nine years at uh HR Block doing um knocking on doors of accountant's office.

So you've always done more the like the cold lead gen approach.

Yeah, I did a lot of it, especially for at HR Block. Now, now though, with what we do, um, and then I I spend some time in health and wellness for a um uh uh a boutique fitness concept, there's um that's very much back to the last four or five years. I think I've really been focused on those like broke franchise brokers that are referring people to us and and that kind of thing. I don't sell directly now, um, but um very much part of the process. I have a really great team that is so passionate about this brand specifically, and uh so now I just get to kind of structure deals, which is fun. So, but uh that's how I got into franchising, totally, totally by accident.

All right, let's let's dive into something real quick because you said something there that I mentioned, like cold lead gen. So one of the things we we do talk about in pretty good detail on on the show is we talk about like cold lead gen versus warmly gen. And and again, it's not black and white, like there's some gray, there's all sorts of things. But the reason I say that is because, especially in real estate, a lot of people get into real estate and someone tells them, just pick up the phone and just start calling people. Sometimes they call people they know, but a lot of times they call people they don't know. They get a list, they get leads, they get whatever. I don't know any of these people, I'm just gonna start calling, smiling and dialing, whatever you want to call it, and trying to build their business that way. Now you've done multiple ventures where coldly gen seem to be the way to get started. Why has that worked for you? Like why has that been a good approach?

So I will say I'm I'm not against it at all. Um I think there's definitely ways to you know work work smarter, not harder. I think the time when I was doing it the most, technology wasn't at what it is today. Um I still remember the first time, you know, texting a candidate. Like we're I'm texting on your Blackberry? Yeah, on my Blackberry, literally. And I was like, this is crazy. Um and then so, but there I think there's absolutely space for it, especially in real estate. Um you know, when at at Rilogy or anywhere now, um, you know, they still talk about being belly to belly, like you know that phrase, like it's and and that is there's there's a lot of power to that. So um I think I I would never I would say if you ever get away from if you're in in sales or you need to grow a business and you're ever gonna get away from you feeling at the point where you're gonna get away from doing cold calling or cold emailing or whatever it is, don't stop it. Don't ever stop it because I think it's what keeps you hungry, right? And that's where you find your best deals. You're gonna have to go, it's gonna be a one out of 200 or whatever the close the ratio is, but those are always the ones that end up bringing the best referrals or bringing the best, bringing the best deal. Like you find the things that weren't supposed to be found. That's I think what cold coin is. But it takes um a dedicated person to do that. I was not great at it, but I was strategic with it. So yeah, I would get um, and this is what it, you know, even now, like I would get one lead in an area. Let's say for HNR, let's say in real estate, you get one lead in one area. Um, even in home investors, you get a lead, um, you go, you schedule the appointment, you go out to that lead. And I think if anybody is doing that and then not doing a search of all around there to see what other opportunities are there, you're completely wasting your time just taking that one appointment.

Yeah, like circle prospecting.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Um, there's so much resources out there too, especially like I have software. Um I imagine it's not terribly expensive or proprietary. I don't really know, but I can pull a list. If I have an appointment here, I can pull a list and I can sort by you know how many houses were flipped in the last year. Were they bought by an entity or by an individual? Was it an out of state? And the data is just crazy. And that's still cold call, even though you're using the data. So I'm like, hey, listen, I and and and I and I it wouldn't be abnormal to sit at that meeting, know I'm gonna get that contract, pull this thing up, because I don't I know I just want to sign that contract or wholesale it. And I have a list of 10 deals that were done within a mile radius in the last six months. I'm gonna go call one of those. I got this deal for you know 130 grand. I was like, you know, you or no, I'm not gonna tell him I got it for 130, but I got this opportunity that's 165, it's got an ARV of 300. Yep, you know, you know, and like that you could have you could have it sold before you even left the the property. So um don't shy away from cold calling.

Well, I think when you started Mooney loves it, you didn't have a choice.

I yeah, right.

I did so you were like, this is what we're here's the playbook, there you go. Yeah, like there's the phone, there are the names and numbers.

Especially if you I would literally just drive, I covered New York City, all the boroughs in New York, and I would drive down the Bronx and just look for signs that say income tax, and there's a bunch of them. But it's also the you know, in the Bronx, whatever, um, very Latino community, they do uh multi-servicios or so. Like they do in front, they're they were making empanadas, they were also they're doing money transfer, they had an internet cafe, and there's a little dude in the back that was banging out thousand returns a year. I'm like, all right, I weave my way through, talk to them.

Um, you know, but then I would go an epanata in the one hand, and you're like, yeah, let me tell you about HR Block.

Oh um, there is uh uh my if one of my my old boss from there, if he ever hears this, he'll get a kick out of it. There's a a fast food chain in Queens and Bronx called Golden Crust. Okay, all they do is Jamaican food, but like the it's it's so good. And he would get my expense reports and have to approve all these golden crusts. Like, dude, you know you can go in crust. He's like, you know you can go to nicer places when you're out. I was like, I don't care. I feel like this is nice. This is nice. That oxtail was to die for anyway. Um, so but then I would go from that meeting with the little guy in the back of the bodega to you know the Empire State Building, to you know, so-and-so's CPA, and they would be like, Are you kidding me, dude? I spent 25 years telling my clients to never go to that big green sign of H and R block. How the hell do you expect me to join you? And then that and then it we I would do it, we would do it because there was there was the reasons to that made sense. Um, and I think that's the same thing even now, or in real estate, or in anything. It's like um people people want to know that they have options, and when you can create when you can be a good listener and say, like, just tell me what situation you're trying to get out of and and move towards, and let me like give you a solution, what that might look like. Maybe it's like I may walk in the house and be like, and they may have called me or from you know uh we buy ugly houses, um, and I'm walking into this house and like it needs paint and carpet. I I'm I'm gonna tell them that. Like that I'm gonna make you an offer of 65% of ARV because that's what we do, but you you know, you could just redo the paint the walls and go illustrative with an agent, right? Go, you can get way more than what I'm gonna offer you. And like that person's not gonna forget that. He's like, you know what, you know, these he'll do a free. They didn't, you know, so and that's a big that's a really that's a I don't want to speak for all investors because you know there's the institutional ones that just have their box and I have to do that, but home investors are different, you know.

Yeah, well, so that you said they're never gonna forget that, just like you're never gonna forget Mike. And because you're starting at that job and he's and he's yelling over the cubicle, he's like, say this, say that. Like you're never gonna forget him. Yeah.

And this also You have no vested interest in line success. So like, you know, and this is trying to help you. Just trying to help.

This is why I wanted to ask the cold lead gen question. It's not necessarily what I do for the majority of my advertising, but even making this podcast is cold lead generation. This is getting in front of people, I don't know. They're either watching or listening or both, or just doing the shorts or the full episodes, and maybe they relate to it and maybe they don't. It doesn't matter. So the reason I wanted to ask, I wanted to ask the question about the cold lead gen is what happens is like along the way, you start to figure out, okay, like maybe I like this delivery method, but maybe there's like a different way to do it, or maybe I like this delivery method for like 80% of my time, but 20% I'm gonna go out and like have coffee with someone, have lunch with someone, shakes and shake some more important hands, let's call it, and see if they can help my business too. So the moral of what I'm getting at is that there is no right or wrong way, which we've said many times on this show, and even Sean and I do different things in our businesses. He likes some things that I don't like, and vice versa. Yeah. So I think it's interesting that like you've done all these things, but then you get to the example of like, okay, I have like a customer and like I'm about to make money and all it needs is paint and carpet. You're just like, you know, if you just do the paint and carpet yourself, you really don't need me. Right. Why don't you just do it and make the money yourself? And they're gonna be like, oh what I'm never gonna forget that guy.

Yeah. I and and and to your point of of diversing, diversifying how you're touching people is so important. That's why you know I would never stick to one channel.

Yeah, there is no right way, wrong way, not even one way or two ways. Sometimes there's ten ways.

Yeah, and I think too, when you um and just like with this, like you're not here selling anything. I I'm not selling anything, um, you know, per se, but when you're adding value to somebody, when they just learn anything, I'm a big fan of giving out information. I um and and as much as you can get from, I can tell you everything you need to know about franchising, what to avoid, you know, how to read an FDD, which is their disclosure document, or all that stuff. I will and I I love helping people kind of go down that path. I have could I don't care if they end up doing something with me or somebody else, but I know they left that conversation you know a little bit smarter about a topic. And so that's I I think if you do that with everything that you're going into, like what am I gonna what am I gonna learn from this person and what is this person gonna learn from me? That's how that's how that that's how that spider web grows, you know.

Absolutely. And we talked about it, it's a karma thing, right? Like if you're absolutely if you're like Mike did had nothing to do with you. Like his day wouldn't change his li his year.

He's spending less time on himself, and now he's spending more time on you.

Yeah, so he's taken away from what he could be doing by trying to help you, didn't have to do it, chose to do it because he wanted you to see you succeed, right? And so, like that kind of sounds like it translates to what you're doing now.

You learn from him. That's that and that ex so that's what so he would it's I can't like goosebumps thinking about this. Yeah, um, but he he said it's not about telling them about it, it's about asking the right questions. And and I and I remember learning that so from him so early. Uh you know, and it's it has to be, and Chris Voss talked about this at Bigger Pockets. There's there's um you we we have a tendency as salespeople to try to find common ground pretty quickly. Like if I'm on a zoom and I see there's a a golfer in the background, oh you golf. Like that's that's that's not that's almost patronizing. You want to have what he calls tactical empathy. So it's like you're asking engaging questions, but you're really learning about that person. It's not just trying to find the fact that we all have kids or we golf or whatever. And when you look at it from a more of a strategic standpoint of getting information without um interrogating, um, you're gonna that you like someone said to me once, uh my good friend in uh franchising Eric Wexler, he says he's interesting because he's interested. And that's it. He's like, I just ask questions and I focus and I pay attention, I make eye contact, and people will just say, Man, you're really interesting. I didn't even say a word. I just, you know, I was interested in what you were saying, so it's kind of cool, you know. And I think that's it's really cool. Yeah.

All right, so here's here's a question we asked. What do you love most about what you do? You said helping others achieve their dreams of business ownership and helping existing business owners diversify through franchising. Why did you put that as as one of the things you love most about what you do?

Well, the second part or the whole or both pieces. Yeah. The whole thing. Yeah. Um, when you're in franchise development or franchise sales, you will literally hear every j learn about every job because everybody came from something, you know, whether they were a CTO, whether they were, you know, um union worker, whether they, you know, you so every single conversation is different. Like I feel so bad if I for when I think of like SaaS sales guys that are like talking to an IT person every day about the same thing. I'm like, I mean, good for them that they can do that. I know they do really well at it, or even like med device. I mean, I know a ton of successful people in that, but like I would lose my mind if I had to talk about like this little piece of mesh that goes over this part of your body, and then you know, I don't know. But six thousand times over, yeah, right. And so, and so I literally get to like hear a news story. I love meeting people, and I and I listen and I ask questions. What tell me about you? Why and why franchising? Why now? What's going on?

That's such a simple question. Oh, it's such a simple question. And then people feel like they can finally talk about things that maybe other people don't ask them about.

Exactly right. Because they're it's all about themselves. Like, oh, and I'll and I'm genuinely interested in stuff, you know, and like I I've heard the jobs like one guy he does polyjacking. He's like, You know what that is? Anybody know what that is? No.

You do? Yeah, I don't. It's when you pump up the sidewalks.

Yeah, you shoot this.

That has something to do with dentures, but maybe I'm wrong. Like you've got a curb that's like this and this, and you need this to come up.

Yeah, you shoot this like liquid thing, and it like lifts it up instead of redoing the whole thing. Like, what the hell is that? I just you know, those kind of things are like it's so and he's making you know a million and a half a year doing that, just him and his little truck. Like, I'm like, that's so cool. Yeah, um Tell me more, yeah. Tell me more. Yeah, where do I get the foam? Yeah, um, I definitely Googled everything about how to start anywhere. I looked around, I was like, anybody else doing that here? I do that. Like 1.5 million, right? Right, right. Yeah, yeah. Um, and then so and then like and then out the way I've always done so. I've never been the best sales guy, you know, as far as like number of calls. I'm not the best CRM guy and you know, all that kind of stuff. But um, I've been successful because of of I'm a huge fan of radical transparency. Um and and I tell people like the good, bad, and the ugly, um, because it I it would suck to come into a business that you're like, I'm all pumped up about, and then like you're that first month that you're struggling to make rent on your new you know boutique fitness concept. Like, I want them to know that's coming. And so I treat franchise like exploring a franchise. I've always wanted to be a school teacher. I should go back to that. I've always I like if somebody would have said what would you do for the rest of your life, I would have been like a high school teacher and a football coach at at the high school. Uh I think that would have been awesome. And so this is my closest way to get to it. Yeah, like I'm teaching and coaching. And um and and and I say to them, I was like, this will never feel like a sales process. I will I will give you all the information you need to make a decision. There's only time it will be at the very end, I will say, I gave you all the information I can give you. Now you have to tell me if this is for you. Other than that, you should just be learning. And that and I love that part of it. And now being more at a different uh, you know, not directly selling franchises and helping um piece together deals and work with existing business owners who are either in another business, they're like, I just want to do something different, or I have I need a I need a five-year plan. And I just I don't know, strategizing problems. You can tell.

I mean, just asking you, you can see how much you'd like it out to like. I really do.

I really enjoy it.

Um your quote was very good. So your quote was if I had an hour to solve a problem and my life depended on the solution, I would spend the first 55 minutes determining the proper question to ask. For once I knew the proper question, I could solve the problem in less than five minutes by Albert Einstein. Pretty powerful, you know. Sometimes quotes are like ten words, but this one you gotta think about it for a minute. Why'd you choose that one?

So it goes back to like realizing that I can't get to the end result of the out the outcome of it of a of a franchise sale or whatever if I haven't asked the right questions throughout the course of it. So, but I use that not just in sales, I use it in in everything, every problem I have, I try to get to, I try to take the top of it and start asking questions, be like, what is what are you really asking me? Yeah. Um, project managers are really good at this, they have it naturally. Like, I'll go to my IT person and be like, I need this to sync with this, um, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'll be like, well, why? And I'll be like, well, because this and then he's like, oh, well, we have that, you just have to do it this way. And I'm like, crap, all right, cool. Thanks. You don't have to go spend the money on whatever I'm asking you to spend the money on. Um, and so I just think every situation I've ever been in where um there was a problem, there was somebody asking the the right question to figure out how to solve the problem, and so it's always stuck with me. There was another Albert Einstein one that I was torn between where he's just like, um, you know, I'm actually not really that smart, I'm just wildly curious. And it's it goes back to asking those questions. And it's very similar to that. So anyway, that's kind of why I went that route.

Do you think you could um with your experience, do you think you could really take any franchise that that you haven't even done? Like a different industry, different structure. What you what you know and the everything that you've kind of seen and built and put together, could you take that as an application to something like wildly different?

Completely outside of franchising or still franchise, but just something I've never touched before.

Franchise model and the way you build it and apply it to a business industry that you've never industry, like something really random.

In sales. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yes. It's a we call in franchising, it's a discovery process. And it's and I have I over the course of 20 years having really good managers, having lousy ones, having somewhere between I've created, and you know, it's on my computer, a 10-step franchise discovery process that I could probably put into car sales, I could probably put into um landscapes, I don't know, anything else.

If I have a business and I came to you and said, Hey, I have two walls franchise MIB, Mooney Insurance Brokers.

Yeah. You want to oh, that's a different question.

So here's so that so yeah. So my first question was that, but now I'm thinking, as I'm as you're kind of Could you take Mooney and find a way to franchise insurance brokers and and sell it all across the country?

Yes. But here's what I would say first as a You need a mustache? You need mustache, definitely cool.

That would be part of the market. That would be checking. I figured everyone knew that, but I might as well ask you.

Now, after that, once you've gotten your mustache, here's what I would tell anybody who's thinking about franchising their business, because this happens a lot, and people um screw it up. Uh, they have this one awesome location. Let's call it a burger place. They just they make the best burger.

They wildly popular and popular area.

Like some franchise development company knocks on their door and says, We can make this a household name, and they get all fired up. They spend $100,000 on legal fees, building it out, and all that kind of stuff, and then they never sell one of them. That story is done over and over and over again. So here's what you do first. This would be my number one tip to anybody considering franchising anything. So you got your awesome one here. Let's say it's in Philly. This is fun. You yourself go open one in Austin, Texas. I don't care how you operate, I don't care if you hire somebody or if you move there. Completely different markets. That one works, you're getting closer. Now go do it in Seattle. And then if all three of them are working, and now you're ready to franchise it.

But that's not it's not to say uh have one here and then have one two neighborhoods over. Because again, what if it's something that's like local? Like what if the the food is like a local vibe or like hey, you know, people in this area like fast casual, but they don't like sit down, like you know, all the face.

And use an insurance, you know. What do I have to what do I have to know about this? How are you in Philly going to tell somebody in let's say at least Florida, because they're going through all those things with insurance? Like, how might how are you going because you have to be the expert. You have to be able to put together an operator manual that you can give to any person and they can go run that business perfectly. And now they're in um Tampa, Florida, and they can't get any coverage. You know, how are you going to make sure they're successful? That's those are things you have to ask yourself when you're thinking about franchising your business. Very cool.

Awesome, man. Dude, really good conversation. Uh, before we shut this one down, why don't you tell our listeners and watchers where they can learn more about you and everything you got going on?

Oh, yeah. So um I would love to talk to anybody who is an aspiring or an existing investor who wants to take their business to the next level that could benefit from inbound leads, access to capital, technology, vendor relationships that are insane. You I can't even tell on you on air like how much we pay for our franchise pay for like Sherman Williams Paint. But like it is so significant when you're putting it in. I'm gonna guess half. That's pretty much right. Yeah. All right. Um, so um, you know, and mentorship, you know, we are community. The first three words of our mission statement is to help others, and we do that in every aspect of our business, whether it's internally, whether it's with a seller, whether it's with another franchisee. So you can uh you can go to you know franchise.homvestors.com and get more information there if you want to poke around.

Awesome, man. Dude, really good conversation. And that's all we have for this one, folks. Thank you for tuning in again to another episode of Bricks and Risk. See you next week.

Thanks, guys.

Thank you for joining us on another episode of Bricks and Risk. Our goal is that you walk away with one or two valuable nuggets, and we greatly appreciate you sharing your time with us today. You can find all BR episodes on Spotify, Apple Music, YouTube, and anywhere else you get your podcast content. Until next time, keep learning and keep growing.